Our faith started out Jewish. Today, very little remains of our 1st Century Apostolic Messianic faith.
We are Apostolic and our Apostolic patriarchs (Simon The Zealot, Thaddeus, Bartholomew, James of Alpheus, Thomas, Matthew, Phillip, Andrew, James, John, and Peter) and matriarchs (Martha, Mary, Mary Magdalene) were all Jews. They read Jewish Scriptures, the ones which identified the qualifications of Messiah. Their Messiah is a Jew, who lived in a Jewish land among Jewish people immersed in Jewish culture who worshiped a Jewish God. Even the Messiah's Name, Yeshua, is thoroughly Jewish, a name which means Salvation.
Yeshua, who many of us know better as Jesus, didn't come to create a new religion. Christianity started out as a sect within greater Judaism. The problem arose when Gentiles came into the fold, and afterwards, Judaism stopped recognizing The Nazarene sect. As Gentile Believers eventually outnumbered Jewish Believers, the sect began to gradually lose its Jewish identity as a result of numerous events. The Nazarene sect, which was also known as Ha-Derek (The Way), would suffer ultimately from a complete divorce from her Jewish roots in Jesus at the hands of Constantine and the Council of Nicea, the very people who would provide the foundation for the infamous doctrine of the trinity.
Looking at our Apostolic faith in the 21st Century, most people are amazed to find that they keep more of G-d's Torah than they realize. Granted, many Apostolics won't think twice about scarfing down a ham and cheese sandwich before heading off for Monday night prayer, and while no one should condemn a person for choices in food, at what point do we start considering how our Apostolic Forefathers (and mothers...) would have done things if they walked amongst us? I point this out for one reason: we call ourselves Disciples. Disciples imitate their Master. Jesus kept the Law, and so did His Disciples. If they did it, we should as well.
Let me be clear on something: I am not an advocate for taking on the yoke of observing the Judaism practiced today, which is called Rabbinic Judaism. However, I will state that if our Apostolic forefathers observed the Festival of Booths, we should construct a booth (Sukkah in Hebrew) and observe the festival as well, at the appropriate time. If they kept Kosher (while refraining from judging those don't...), then we should. If they removed the leaven from their homes and refrained from eating leaven for seven days, so should we. And while it's perfectly fine to worship on the first day of the week, it still remains that if they observed the Fourth Commandment and kept the Seventh day as Holy, then so should we,... if we're disciples of Yeshua.
Observing Torah will not save anyone, just like going to church every Sunday won't save anyone. Observing Torah is a sign of obedience, just like living a Godly lifestyle is a sign of obedience. One of the things which exists in Christianity today is when a Gentile chooses to observe a particular part of the law. The response from most Christians is the same: "Brother (or sister), you've gone back 'under the Law.'" And of course, being under the Law is wrong, right? To be under the Law is not what most people think it is.
The common thought is that when a person performs a function of the Law, that person is under the Law. This is a misconception. When a person says, "I don't need the blood of Jesus. I have the Torah, and if I keep the commandments of G-d, my place in the world to come is secure," this person is under the Law. A person who relies on his/her strict obedience to the Law apart from the work Yeshua performed at Calvary is under the Law. To be in a place apart from Yeshua is not a good place to be. For this person it's Torah all the way.
Let's contrast this with a person who obeys and keeps Torah, and trusts in the salvific work of Yeshua through His death, burial, and resurrection. This type of person recognizes Salvation to come from Calvary first and foremost, not from Torah, yet this person who remains obedient to G-d's Torah is not under the Law. For this person, Yeshua comes before Torah.
Most people who keep Torah will keep it the way its done in 21st Century Rabbinic Judaism. While some of what they do is correct, a Believer who chooses to observe Torah should only keep it in the context of Messiah. Plain and simple, if Yeshua didn't do it, we shouldn't. An example is the ritual of the washing of hands. It's not in the Torah, but it's a big part of Rabbinic Judaism, and since it's not in the Torah, a Torah-observant disciple of Yeshua is not bound to observe this well-meaning but non-essential ritual.
Rabbinic Judaism prohibits eating meat with dairy, based on the thrice mentioned prohibition of seething a kid in it's mother's milk. A Torah-observant disciple of Yeshua looks in the Torah and does not find G-d prohibiting mixing meat with dairy. For the Torah-observant disciple of Yeshua, G-d doesn't take issue with eating cheese on a hamburger, but about eating cheese on a ham sandwich.
Men hijacked the Church and forced her to be divorced from her Jewish roots, but G-d is restoring the 1st Century Apostolic Church. He began by pouring out His Spirit again in the 20th Century, and now people speak in tongues in the 21 Century like they did in the 1st Century. G-d continued His restoration through the revelation of the Acts 2:38 message. Now that the process of regeneration is known again to the Church, G-d's restorative work continues as the following is taking place as we speak:
G-d will reconcile The Church to her Jewish roots.
G-d will reconcile The Church to the Jewish people.
G-d will reconcile the Jewish people to her Messiah.
G-d will reconcile Messiah to the world.
When these reconciliations come to fullness, two biblical prophecies will come to pass:
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.
All will recognize that The LORD is One and His Name One.
The Apostolic sect of Christianity has been part of G-d's restoration so far. What every Christian should know is this: according to the prophet Zachariah, everyone will observe Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles. Everyone, and that includes Bubba the Bible Thumper who says, "I'm not under the Law. I'm under Grace." I love Bubba and I believe that one day, Bubba will see that Grace and Law are not in opposition to each other.
Yeshua kept the Torah and showed His disciples how to keep Torah. Among the things He taught His disciples, two of them were: be great in the Kingdom by keeping Torah and teach others to do the same. Paul kept Torah, right up to the day his head was removed. As Paul exhorts us to imitate him as He imitates Messiah, I exhort my Apostolic family to take a fresh look at the Bible that Yeshua and His Disciples read: the Torah.
And thanks for reading!
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I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
Sabellius and I are having a discussion in another thread and, rather than hijack the thread, I asked to take it to this thread.
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Originally Posted by Sabellius
We have obvious disagreements about the applications of certain Biblical truths. I have no problem with Messianic Judaism. I do not think however it relates to the Gentile church as you might believe. That is probably our fundamental point of disagreement actually.
I believe most of the religious traditions of Judaism are so intertwined with culture that to abandon all of them then is akin to an American now rejecting Independence Day. Do you agree? I do not think though that Gentiles must or should adapt to those very traditions in retrospect.
Sabellius, please list some of 'the religious traditions of Judaism,' so that I'll know we're talking about the same thing. You'd be surprised at how differently people view what the traditions of Judaism are.
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
Yes, it is God's doing. Romans 11 is quite clear of that fact. I think it is important to post Pslams 118:22-23:
{Unfortunately, the quoted verse didn't carry over in the quote.}
When taken in a vacuum vs. 23 seems to apply immediately, or only, to the stone and the cornerstone. It is clear though that the "Lord's doing" was "marvelous" to the "eyes" of others. In fact, what was actually or literally marvelous was the events with David just prior. The people of Israel rejoiced with him because his deliverance on the battlefield (See Psalms 118:10-12) had important and needed outcomes.
Not trying to refute what you're saying, but this passage of Scripture has always been held as a Messianic prophetic proof. Are you saying otherwise? This would be a first for me regarding this passage.
I believe we're essentially in agreement on the following:
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Originally Posted by Sabellius
I believe that Israel is still in covenant with God. They are a chosen people, as are New Testament believers. Salvation however comes only through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. So far, much of Israel has rejected Him. Those who reject Him are not true Israel, yet true Israel is one who is by lineage and spiritual circumcision. I also contend that the Church is not Israel, nor spiritual Israel.
One area where the Church is guilty is how we have presented Jesus to the Jewish people. The way we have presented Him, it's no wonder that they reject Him, generation after generation. This will be perceived by some as controversial, but by rejecting Him according to the way the Church presents Him, they are being true Israel, at least the Israel that is true to Torah. What the Church says about The Messiah and what the Torah says about Messiah are two different things.
The Torah says that the one who is not the Messiah will be one who teaches people to abandon Torah. We say Jesus violated the Sabbath laws and ended the Law at the Cross, and it's no wonder that the Jewish people say, "No thank you." Jesus did not violate any of the Torah, or it would have disqualified Him as Messiah. He specifically said that He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. Furthermore, the Church makes the critical error of telling Jewish Believers that they don't have to be Jewish anymore, because being Jewish or being non-Jewish means nothing, only keeping the Commandments of G-d. To tell a Jew that becoming a Christian means losing your Jewish identity is wrong on so many levels.
This is a connection between Joseph and Jesus. The sons of Jacob who came to Egypt for grain and saw Joseph for the first time as Prince of Egypt did not recognize him until he 'revealed' himself to them. Israel doesn't accept Yeshua as their brother because they don't recognize Him, and they'll never recognize Him as long as the Church presents Him the way we do. The Church has de-Judaized Jesus and has made Him out to be a Messiah for everyone, and though He certainly is, Jesus came to be the Messiah to the Jewish people first, the people who are His brothers and sisters.
If Jewish people are going to come to Jesus, their perception of Him needs to change, and it's up to us to make that happen.
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
Neubill, just got online and saw this link. Thanks for posting this. I will try to respond better later. I have very little free time right now though. I think we will agree more than not though. Shalom!
My post start off with: Our faith started out Jewish
Yes, you are technically correct, I apologize for skipping the first line.
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Please share with me what you mean. A less curt response is appreciated.
No curtness intended. It is actually quite simple. Most who claim to be "apostolic" are referring to a holiness or oneness doctrine, which is an inaccurate usage of the word.
In reality the word "apostolic" mainly refers to the apostolic ministry of the original twelve apostles. This reference is not so much a reference of their doctrine, but the anointing that they operated in...that of an Apostle. One may believe in the apostolic ministry or the apostolic age, but that does not make them apostolic it just makes them a believer.
Since probably only about 5% of the Body of Christ would qualify as legitimately being called into the gifting or anointing of an Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, or teacher then they are not truly "apostolic" even if they adhere to the doctrine of the Apostles.
If, being "apostolic" only refers to the doctrine of the Apostles then every mainstream denomination would be apostolic as they all claim to believe the teachings of the New Testament.
THEY were Jewish...those people, but the church was NOT Jewish. Please read Paul's Epistles to the Gentile church and Acts 15
Jewish people have jewish roots. The Christian Church is not Judaism.
THEY were Jewish...those people, and they practiced a Jewish religion. THEY kept kosher, kept Shabbat and the feasts. James speaks in Acts 21 about the Jews who Believe and are zealous for Torah, and there apparently were a lot of them.
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Originally Posted by Praxeas
THEY were Jewish...those people, but the church was NOT Jewish. Please read Paul's Epistles to the Gentile church and Acts 15
The Gentile Church? Praxeas, the Body of Messiah is the Church. One Church. The Church was Jewish.
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`I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.' John 10:14-16 YLT
Gentiles being brought into the Jewish flock to become one flock. Gentiles are brought into the Jewish church to become one church. How else does one explain being grafted in to the Olive Tree of Israel? Paul makes a point to remind us that the grafted in branch doesn't support the root, but the root supports the branch. Our faith is Jewish, our roots are Jewish, and our faith came out of the cradle of Judaism. Christianity is a Jewish religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neubill
Our faith started out Jewish. Today, very little remains of our 1st Century Apostolic Messianic faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
THEY were Jewish...those people, but the church was NOT Jewish. Please read Paul's Epistles to the Gentile church and Acts 15
I read Acts 15. It chronicles the meeting of the Jerusalem Council, a council of Church leaders comprised of Jews leading the Church, one which started out as a sect of Judaism known as 'The Way.'
The Church WAS Jewish in foundation, but not exclusive to Jews. The Gospel spread to the half-Jews and then to the non-Jews, culminating with Acts 15 which convened for the purpose of determining if Gentiles needed to become Jews according to Rabbinic (not Torah) tradition. The answer was not made by a consensus of Jews and Gentiles, but Jews only, who were the leaders of a sect of Judaism.
Though the Jerusalem Council determined conversion as unnecessary, going to the synagogue and learning Torah on Shabbat was still part of the early Church, as they were encouraged to do so in verse 21.
After the Church grew with the addition of Gentiles, Judaism began to be choked out of the Body of Messiah.
I'll reiterate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neubill
Yeshua, who many of us know better as Jesus, didn't come to create a new religion. Christianity started out as a sect within greater Judaism. The problem arose when Gentiles came into the fold, and afterwards, Judaism stopped recognizing The Nazarene sect. As Gentile Believers eventually outnumbered Jewish Believers, the sect began to gradually lose its Jewish identity as a result of numerous events. The Nazarene sect, which was also known as Ha-Derek (The Way), would suffer ultimately from a complete divorce from her Jewish roots in Jesus at the hands of Constantine and the Council of Nicea, the very people who would provide the foundation for the infamous doctrine of the trinity.
Praxeus, you say Christianity is not Judaism.
Christianity WAS Messianic Judaism. It was, and it will be again as the Torah will be written on every heart. Little by little, like it or not, the Body of Messiah is returning again to her foundation: the Scriptures Jesus and His Disciples read, which is the Torah. Christianity started out as, and was always meant to be, a Jewish religion.
I'm looking forward to observing the Festival of Tabernacles with you and watching you love every minute of it as you rejoice before The LORD your G-d as prescribed by G-d's Holy Torah.
Thanks for your response!
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
Christianity is a Jewish religion
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