I Corinthians 11

[Baron1710]

I Corinthians 11

I am fairly new to this forum so forgive me if this topic has been played out.

When reading Paul’s letter to the Corinthians it is obvious there is more going on in that church and culture then we are aware of. Paul makes several curious statements…

1. In verse 6 he says “For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.”

a.Is Paul’s “IF” (if it be a shame) a rhetorical question or is it a question about customs?

b.If it is a sin for a woman to have a shaved head then why did God command it… Deut. 21:11-12 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;

c.Both men and women could take a nazarite vow which included shaving the head at the beginning of the vow. Numbers 6; Acts 18:18; Acts 21;23-24.

2.In verse 14 “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?”

a.Rhetorical?

b.Why do we have Nazarites in the Old Testament. Judges 16:17
That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.

Why does God command some men to have long hair, some women to shave their heads, allow both men and women to voluntarily take a nazarite vow which requires the shaving of their heads and the hair remaining uncut for the length of the vow?

Is it possible we have misinterpreted I Corinthians 11 since our interpretation seems to conflict with the plain teaching of Scripture in other places?

Is there another passage in Scripture that stands alone apart from the rest of Scripture on a topic that we make a doctrine of?

Isn’t it risky to make a doctrine from one obscure passage of Scripture with nothing else to collaborate it anywhere in Scripture?

Too many questions?

[Michael The Disciple]

Risky buisness indeed to force an interpretation of forbidding women to trim their hair. Long is not the same as uncut. Thats a bad doctrine. Pauls point is for women to cover their heads WHEN THEY PRAY OR PROPHESY. That only makes sense with the doctrine of the veil.

That indicates they can CHOOSE to cover when they do it. Were it long hair alone no choice would be necessary. They would ALWAYS be covered.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Risky buisness indeed to force an interpretation of forbidding women to trim their hair. Long is not the same as uncut. Thats a bad doctrine. Pauls point is for women to cover their heads WHEN THEY PRAY OR PROPHESY. That only makes sense with the doctrine of the veil.

That indicates they can CHOOSE to cover when they do it. Were it long hair alone no choice would be necessary. They would ALWAYS be covered.

Is there someplace else in Scripture you can point to in order to strengthen that viewpoint?

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Is there someplace else in Scripture you can point to in order to strengthen that viewpoint?

Interesting viewpoint which may assist you.

http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/stdy35-0.htm

[DividedThigh]

baron my friend this subject has been processed on this forum till it could be some fine cheese, i find little evidence scripturally speaking to support a ban on hair cuttin or trimming, and especially no position to use to condemn, my opinion of course, dt

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by DividedThigh

baron my friend this subject has been processed on this forum till it could be some fine cheese, i find little evidence scripturally speaking to support a ban on hair cuttin or trimming, and especially no position to use to condemn, my opinion of course, dt

I like cheese. Can we take communion at the same time?

[DividedThigh]

you crack me up brother, sure come up here for a visit and we can have some good wisconsin cheese, lol,dt

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Risky buisness indeed to force an interpretation of forbidding women to trim their hair. Long is not the same as uncut. Thats a bad doctrine. Pauls point is for women to cover their heads WHEN THEY PRAY OR PROPHESY. That only makes sense with the doctrine of the veil.

That indicates they can CHOOSE to cover when they do it. Were it long hair alone no choice would be necessary. They would ALWAYS be covered.

Wrong my friend...When that robber stuck his gun in my face I sure prayed and had no veil...and the Lord heard my prayer…
I was in a teaching seminar and the spirit of the Lord came upon me and I stood up and said someone here tonight will die tomorrow… I had no veil on…
If you are going to preach the veil message then get you a bible veil for the ladies...lol I went to a meeting and noticed some ladies had on these fancy hats...Someone beside me saw me looking at the hat ladies and the person whispered to me, Sister Alvear, they are from Canada where ladies wear veils in their group...
Hats=veils? No way Jose...

I respect people if they want to wear a veil then by all means wear one...I have a friend that wears a veil...
I went to visit a church and they handed me a veil...

If you put veils on the ladies then put tunics and sandals on the men...

[Ferd]

Baron, these are the things we ought to all agree on (yea right! LOL!)

First, in v2 Paul says: “and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.”

That word ordinance means something, especially in the context of your question. The “if” refer to doesn’t undo the weight Paul puts on his own teaching here.

As to the scripture in Deut as it relates to 1 Cor. The context has to be included here. The OT passage refers to an UNBELIEVER, coming INTO Israel. Paul’s reference in 1 Cor is directed to those within the Church.

Context then, shows us that these two passages are not in conflict.

The second thing we ought to agree on is that Paul says in vs. 15 that a woman’s hair is the covering he is talking about earlier.
Lastly in vs 16 the King James, being archaic says: 16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God

But it is difficult to understand what Paul was saying as the language is backward. A better reading would be:
16Now if anyone is disposed to be argumentative and contentious about this, we hold to and recognize no other custom [in worship] than this, nor do the churches of God generally.

In other words: “All the churches follow the same practice I am teaching you”


Now where there is clear disagreement, is on what is meant by shorn and shaven.

Some say shorn means cut short while others say it means cut at all.
Still others while not willing to say that shorn means cut at all, will say that since no one can determine what short is, we should leave it to God by not cutting at all and what ever length there is, will thus be considered long.

Personally all I can see here is that Paul is saying that a woman should have long hair, and a man should have short hair. Nothing more nothing less. He does say this is important. He does say it should be practiced in “all the churches of God”. I think where we get crossed up is when we stop teaching scripture as it is and start putting our own exacting values on its meaning.

What is long? Personally I don’t care. Teach Long for women and short for men and let the Holy Ghost guide everyone…. (this part is my own view and not something I think we ought to agree on….)

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Wrong my friend...When that robber stuck his gun in my face I sure prayed and had no veil...and the Lord heard my prayer…
I was in a teaching seminar and the spirit of the Lord came upon me and I stood up and said someone here tonight will die tomorrow… I had no veil on…
If you are going to preach the veil message then get you a bible veil for the ladies...lol I went to a meeting and noticed some ladies had on these fancy hats...Someone beside me saw me looking at the hat ladies and the person whispered to me, Sister Alvear, they are from Canada where ladies wear veils in their group...
Hats=veils? No way Jose...

I respect people if they want to wear a veil then by all means wear one...I have a friend that wears a veil...
I went to visit a church and they handed me a veil...

If you put veils on the ladies then put tunics and sandals on the men...

I could go for wearin sandles, maybe not so much on the tunic though.