Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essential)
Praxeas,
My responses are in blue, followed by your comments, but you would have figured that out! LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Is his faithfulness universal towards everyone? Can God see your faithfulness before being baptized or can He only see it AT baptism?
His mercy is for whosoever will, his faithfulness is extended to the believer, and from what the bible shows me, those that are in process of believing the truth.
In regards to the death bed prayer. There's no telling how many times the ill rejected Christ prior. I do believe if a backslidden individual was holyghost filled and Jesus name baptized, and is on his/hers death bed and confesses his/hers sins, God is just to forgive them, and they'll be saved.
If the sinner can repent, get baptized and received the holyghost while near death, praise the Lord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
What about those that died NOT having heard Acts 2:38 preached yet? What does God's faithfulness do for them?
If you're willing to speculate how God kept the Eunuch from harm or death through the desert to complete the salvation process, I'll speculate to the comment above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
BTW what about the thief on the cross? What saved Him? Obdience to the Law? Hardly since he was a thief.
If I must, let me school you about the thief on the cross. Many folks claim baptism is optional due to the thief's experience. I respectfully state there's a lack of understanding on their behalf. Please read the following carefully.
The faith required for salvation of the NEW COVENANT believers wasn't required for the thief. Romans 10:9 reads we must believe God raised Jesus from the dead. The thief couldn't have believed this, seeing Jesus hadn't died yet, much less raised from the dead.
If you utilize the thief as an example of salvation with-out baptism, I could easily utilize the thief as an example to proclaim salvation with-out scripture faith.
Even if I was a one-stepper, I would have to admit the thief's salvation is completely different from mine. I must believe God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9), this wasn't a requirement for the thief.
There are many scriptures that teach baptism is essential for salvation (e.g., Acts 22:16, 1Peter 3:21, etc.). The thief's salvation contradicts these scriptures for NEW COVENANT believers. The thief's salvation process is irrelevant to ours.
Praxeas, during the life of Jesus, He forgave various folks of their sins (e.g., Mark 2, John 8). The thief's classification of forgiveness granted is the same forgiveness these other folks were granted. The sins Jesus forgave where not under the terms of the NEW COVENANT, seeing it wasn't effective until Jesus died.
During our life, we have the ability to give our possessions or forgiveness to family members, friends, etc. Yet, after our death, these same family members or friends must comply and meet the terms of our WILL to inherit our possessions, etc.
BY THIS SAME METHOD JESUS FORGAVE THE SINS OF THIS THIEF, WHILE ALIVE ON EARTH. WHILE ALIVE ON EARTH HE FREELY GAVE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
After the crucification and death of Jesus, his forgiveness was given to whosoever will obey the terms and conditions of His Will. Those terms required are listed in Acts 2:38, repentance and baptism in Jesus name, for the REMISSION of sins! Forever oh Lord, thy word is established in Earth as is in heaven.
Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4
If I must, let me school you about the thief on the cross. Many folks claim baptism is optional due to the thief's experience. I respectfully state there's a lack of understanding on their behalf. Please read the following carefully.
Im not many folks. I never said because of this baptism is optional. I never said baptism was optional.
Quote:
The faith required for salvation of the NEW COVENANT believers wasn't required for the thief. Romans 10:9 reads we must believe God raised Jesus from the dead. The thief couldn't have believed this, seeing Jesus hadn't died yet, much less raised from the dead.
If the thief was saved WITHOUT Jesus then why would anyone need Jesus. IF anyone could have been saved without Jesus before He died then what is the point? Jesus came so that we CAN be saved. Abraham was justified by faith.
That was the point. The Thief and others were saved and yet not baptized. Why? If they can be saved prior to Jesus coming by some other means then we don't need Jesus.
BTW the Thief seems to have believed Jesus would live forever...hanging there on the cross sure to die the Thief said "when you come into your kingdom, remember me"
Their faith was always forward looking to the time Jesus would die. In fact Paul specifically says that WE believers are sons of Abraham.
Abraham preceded the law
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-- Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"? Gal 3:7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
God preached the gospel to Abraham Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
Nothing said about a different kind of faith. Nobody was saved under the law BY doing the works of the law. Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."
God made a covenant with Abraham that was not removed by the law of Moses Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
God gave Abraham a promise, by faith Abraham received it before the Law Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
These people had faith. It was their faith that was important and the reason they received the promise. But the Promise they did not receive until after Jesus died, but they died long before Jesus came
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Even though Christ was not born yet Moses is said to consider the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, Heb 11:25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. Heb 11:26He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.
Quote:
If you utilize the thief as an example of salvation with-out baptism, I could easily utilize the thief as an example to proclaim salvation with-out scripture faith.
The thief had faith in Jesus. That is obvious from the context of the conversation on the cross. The thief was repentant as well.
Quote:
Even if I was a one-stepper, I would have to admit the thief's salvation is completely different from mine. I must believe God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9), this wasn't a requirement for the thief.
You will note the verse you quoted does not mention baptism but believing. Had the thief NOT died he would have had to be baptized in obedience to the word. My whole point is that the thief was not saved by the works of the law...not by being baptized....but by faith in Christ. That does not prove anyone can be saved and not be baptized. Baptism is a biblical command. But this proves that what really matters is faith. In the OT it was faith. In the NT it was faith...in the OT they all died without yet receiving the promises yet, but they were promised to them nevertheless.
ABraham had faith and was justified by faith but he still had to obey God and leave his family and cut ties with them and enter the new land.
Quote:
There are many scriptures that teach baptism is essential for salvation (e.g., Acts 22:16, 1Peter 3:21, etc.). The thief's salvation contradicts these scriptures for NEW COVENANT believers. The thief's salvation process is irrelevant to ours.
Once again I never said baptism is not essential for salvation. Second, how was the thief saved? Who saved him and why?
Quote:
Praxeas, during the life of Jesus, He forgave various folks of their sins (e.g., Mark 2, John 8). The thief's classification of forgiveness granted is the same forgiveness these other folks were granted. The sins Jesus forgave where not under the terms of the NEW COVENANT, seeing it wasn't effective until Jesus died.
By faith. They were forgiven by faith, not by works. Not by doing the law. Not by burning a ram. That is the main point, Nobody was saved by works before. They still had to keep the law, but this thief never had time to go run to the temple and make sacrifices. He obviously was not a good law keeper...being a thief. They still needed to keep the law and we still need to be baptized, but this shows an exception.
Quote:
During our life, we have the ability to give our possessions to family
members, friends, etc. Yet, after our death, these same family members or friends must comply and meet the terms of our WILL to inherit our possessions, etc.
BY THIS SAME METHOD JESUS FORGAVE THE SINS OF THIS THIEF, WHILE ALIVE ON EARTH. WHILE ALIVE ON EARTH HE FREELY GAVE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
Because the thief had FAITH.
Quote:
After the crucification and death of Jesus, his forgiveness was given to whosoever will obey the terms and conditions of His Will. Those terms required are listed in Acts 2:38, repentance and baptism in Jesus name, for the REMISSION of sins! Forever oh Lord, thy word is established in Earth as is in heaven.
As I said before, everyone needs to be baptized, but there are exceptions.
Another example. You are arguing that a person is not forgiven of their sins until baptized...not at repentance. That means they are still sinners...in their sin...their vessels are "dirty" as it were. Yet God gave the Gentiles the Holy Ghost before they were forgiven. According to Paul the Spirit is what saves us
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
When you get baptized for forgiveness of sins you might still need to have your sins forgiven after that. Baptism is a one time thing. But it's the continued presence of the Spirit after that saves us right?
This is the HOLY Spirit. These gentiles did not have their sins forgiven and acts 2:38 if we are going to be literalists and absolutists then we must repent and be baptized before being filled with the Spirit. But God clearly chose fit to make an exception to that.
I have to ask what about those that receive the Spirit and speak in tongues in the Trinitarian churches? Did they receive the Holy Spirit or not? What did they receive? And yet all this time so many of them are still sin stained...their souls presumably in darkness even though the Spirit of the Father of Lights is inside them? Or what is it? What do they have?
Can God forgive sins at Repentance and give them the Spirit so to lead them hopefully to greater truth?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
If the thief was saved WITHOUT Jesus then why would anyone need Jesus. IF anyone could have been saved without Jesus before He died then what is the point? The Thief and others were saved and yet not baptized. If they can be saved prior to Jesus coming by some other means then we don't need Jesus.
Can you please quote my comment about the thief being saved without Jesus? Why was the beggar carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom? (Luke 16:22-24) What sent the rich man to a tormenting hell? Who SAVED the beggar from a tormenting hell, Jesus, Buddha, or the Power Rangers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
God preached the gospel to Abraham Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
What gospel did God preach, "in you all nations shall be blessed?" Is that the gospel you speak about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Nothing said about a different kind of faith. Nobody was saved under the law BY doing the works of the law.
Praxeas, let me explain again. Romans 10:9 reads we MUST believe God raised Jesus from the dead. This is a REQUIREMENT. This belief wasn't required of the thief, reason being Jesus hadn't died yet, much less raised from death. It's clearly evident the thief was under the old dispensation, which didn't require water baptism.
What did the sacrificial sin offerings in the Old Testament signify? What did those sacrifices accomplish?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
You will note the verse you quoted does not mention baptism but believing. Had the thief NOT died he would have had to be baptized in obedience to the word. .
Your honor, I object to that comment, due to pure speculation! Praxeas, the judge will find you contemp for speculation.
The fact is this thief could have been baptized under the baptism of John (that point is still mute) and been a backslider. Your comment about the thief being baptized if he hadn't died is pure speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
That does not prove anyone can be saved and not be baptized. Baptism is a biblical command.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
As I said before, everyone needs to be baptized, but there are exceptions.
You see that? You just contradicted yourself with both comments above! You said "baptism is a biblical command" and "everyone NEEDS to be baptized," but there's exceptions?
If baptism is biblical as you stated above, then not obeying this command is violating God's own command! Would God violate His own law Praxeas?
"For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His
commandments are not grievous," I John 5:3.
"And this is love, that we walk after His commandments," 2 John 6.
We must keep God's commandments if we love him, which includes baptism as you plainly stated, thanks!
By the way, there was not exceptions with the thief. Jesus forgave the thief before He died. The thief was under the old dispensation which didn't require baptism, but blood atonement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Once again I never said baptism is not essential for salvation. Second, how was the thief saved? Who saved him and why?.
God required animal sacrifices that man could receive forgiveness for their sins (Leviticus 4:35; 5:10). Jesus, our High Priest and Lamb, after forgiving the thief, transferred his sins, and the sins of mankind upon himself. Then Jesus was crucified (e.g., sacrificed) on a cross.
Jesus was the final OLD TESTAMENT sin sacrifice. The thief was saved under this action. Also, notice the thief acknowledge Jesus as God when he told Jesus, "remember me......in thy kingdom." He confirmed Jesus was a king and had a kingdom. Beautiful, ehh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
This is the HOLY Spirit. These gentiles did not have their sins forgiven and acts 2:38 if we are going to be literalists and absolutists then we must repent and be baptized before being filled with the Spirit. But God clearly chose fit to make an exception to that.us.
These gentiles did receive the Holy Ghost, but, they still obeyed the 3 step process. Where is your argument here? They obeyed the 3 step process!
I challenge you to show me different!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
When you get baptized for forgiveness of sins you might still need to have your sins forgiven after that. Baptism is a one time thing. But it's the continued presence of the Spirit after that saves us right?.
Aren't we a new creature after baptism? Are will still under condemnation after baptism? Aren't we dead to the flesh and alive in the spirit?
Have you studied these scriptures and their significance to believers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
I have to ask what about those that receive the Spirit and speak in tongues in the Trinitarian churches? Did they receive the Holy Spirit or not? What did they receive? And yet all this time so many of them are still sin stained...their souls presumably in darkness even though the Spirit of the Father of Lights is inside them? Or what is it? What do they have?
Praxeas, remember the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by Beelzebub the prince of the devils? Jesus responded a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. It's evident one must posses the spirit of God to cast out demons. What happens when you try casting out demons without the spirit of God? Remember the seven sons of Sceva?
Now that I've laid the foundation, I'll explain.
Matt 7 reads
22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now, these people that cast out devils or performed miracles were Holy Ghost filled, I proved it above. Now I ask you the same question you asked me, isn't the Spirit of the Father of Lights is inside them, leading them into truth? How can God tell Holy Ghost filled folks He never knew them?
Trinitarians may possess the Holy Ghost and still be workers of iniquity! Why, because their doctrine is false! When one violates the word of God, they're a worker on iniquity (see the Greek). The reason God grants their miracles is because He's faithful to His word.
So yes, they have the Holy Ghost. Many are called, few are chosen! Works always follows faith!
Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
Sure sad when folks can't vote about their beliefs. God, don't let me ever become ashamed or embarrassed about my belief. Let not peer pressure or society prevent me from proclaiming your word!
Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4
Sure sad when folks can't vote about their beliefs. God, don't let me ever become ashamed or embarrassed about my belief. Let not peer pressure or society prevent me from proclaiming your word!
I hesitated to vote - what do you say about batism for the remission of sins being done without Jesus' name?
Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4
Sure sad when folks can't vote about their beliefs. God, don't let me ever become ashamed or embarrassed about my belief. Let not peer pressure or society prevent me from proclaiming your word!
I say all this TIC, so it is not meant to be critical, but informatiove.
How many times have we all heard some one pray? "LORD let us take what we've heard here today put them into practice. Lord, let us be grateful, and let us do the right things. Let us provide for our families, and be good to our spouses.....". I always find it a bit comical to hear someone pray for God to let us do those things that He has already told us to do.
__________________
The Gospel of Jesus Christ: Jesus bore away my sins, my sickness, and my poverty. That covers it all. Everything else is just legalism.
Linear Mode
