Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

[Spirit&Truth]

Hey everyone. I'm something of a new poster here, although I have lurked on the forums off and on for a few years.

Been in church most of my life (since 5 years old or so) although my family did backslide for a while, at which point I came to God on my own (that is, apart from any push from my parents) when I was 13.

I've been running this race for 13 years now, and I've been very busy! I made up my mind a long time ago that this was the lifestyle for me. I've sat under some of the greatest men of God, and even did a couple years in Bible college. I feel I have a pretty good handle on our doctrine, was a Bible quizzer, and have been involved in ministry (still am), both assistant pastoring for one of our ministries and regularly leading worship and playing instruments.

Anyway, this may be the wrong place to post, but I'm looking for some discussion and prayer. Lately, I've been in a funk and having a crisis of faith of sorts. This all started last year when a close friend of mine, who is a minister, urged me to study the doctrine of tithing for myself and examine the whole counsel of God on the topic for myself. I put it off, because OF COURSE tithing is scriptural and essential for the NT church, right? I felt there was no way I could be wrong; I had studied before and knew all the pro-tithing points. But being a person who believes that we must LOVE the truth, I felt that I should go ahead and examine what I was being shown, because loving the truth means open to being shown that you are wrong.

So, long story short, I came to the conclusion that I was wrong on tithing. I don't really want to get into that topic in particular (thought I can elaborate if needed), this is just part of the journey. It bothered me, because if we are wrong about this, what else are we wrong about? I didn't want it to, but I felt it put me at odds with men of God who I trust with my life and know to be faithful men of God. The whole thing really bugged me, because I felt that it was plain to be seen when studying the scripture, so how could they not see? Fast forward to more recently, and I've found myself in a crisis of faith. I never thought I would be here, but I find myself questioning even core doctrines I have believed (and defended) for my whole adult/teenage life. I will humbly admit that I have even questioned right down to the existence of God, speaking in tongues, and other things, wondering if maybe none of it was real. And I am really ashamed of that. It seems impossible that I could see the things I've seen, and still have a propensity for doubt, but here I am. Deep down I love God, and my whole life has been built on this truth, and I'm just in a weird place.

Unfortunately I'm afraid if I were to bring up my doubts to the leadership at my church, then my ministry could be in jeopardy, and I love to serve and don't want to mess that up. Same goes for close friends.... I just don't want to scare people off or get branded as a heretic or something (I know I'm probably just being dramatic about that). I lead songs, play instruments, and even write songs that have been done in churches, and I don't want to mess all of that up. I just feel so weak right now, and I don't want to complicate things with the other leaders at the church or give an impression of myself that I'm not a true believer or something.

So anyway, I was just wondering if any of those here who perhaps are more experienced than me can chime in. Especially those who are in or have been in ministry. Have you found yourself in a crisis of faith like this before? What did you do to get out of it? I'm even open to books or video series that helped build your faith. Prayers are also much appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

[Esaias]

So many opinions... but what does the BIBLE say?

You have to get doctrine from the Word, and judge everything else by the Word. Doesn't matter if all the cool people are wrong, if they are wrong, they are wrong.

I've never believed anything just because some person or some church taught it. I made up my mind before I was even baptized that even if Jesus Himself came down from heaven on live TV and announced the Bible was in error, I'd stick with the Bible. Because I'd know that wasn't Jesus.

The Pharisees taught as doctrine the commandments of men, and we are not to be like that. We have to stick to the Word ONLY.

If you and I, for example, don't have the same understanding of Scripture, we should be able to sit down and search the Word to find the truth. Many won't do that, sadly, they just want everyone to believe them just because.

Know what you believe because you find it clearly taught in the Bible, not because its popular or "official". Man can't save you, only God can. So your first allegiance is to Him and His Word, no matter what others say or do.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So many opinions... but what does the BIBLE say?

You have to get doctrine from the Word, and judge everything else by the Word. Doesn't matter if all the cool people are wrong, if they are wrong, they are wrong.

I've never believed anything just because some person or some church taught it. I made up my mind before I was even baptized that even if Jesus Himself came down from heaven on live TV and announced the Bible was in error, I'd stick with the Bible. Because I'd know that wasn't Jesus.

The Pharisees taught as doctrine the commandments of men, and we are not to be like that. We have to stick to the Word ONLY.

If you and I, for example, don't have the same understanding of Scripture, we should be able to sit down and search the Word to find the truth. Many won't do that, sadly, they just want everyone to believe them just because.

Know what you believe because you find it clearly taught in the Bible, not because its popular or "official". Man can't save you, only God can. So your first allegiance is to Him and His Word, no matter what others say or do.

Very well said, Esaias!!!

[Spirit&Truth]

Thanks for the responses guys (or gals).

I'm with you on that Esaias, the Bible has to be the sole authority. I guess the more I have studied the Bible, it has caused me to be uneasy about a lot of the doctrines I have heard and taught personally for a long time. The conclusion I have come to is that we are often doing exactly what you mentioned-- teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

The way I see it, someone at some point started teaching, for example, that men should be clean shaven. And for that time period and cultural context, I believe it was in line with the Spirit, and a good standard to distinguish from the trends of the world at that time. But somewhere down the line, a few generations later, it becomes so strong as a tradition that we end up teaching it as a doctrine as if it is backed up by Scripture. Beards are just one example that I think most folks these days can see eye-to-eye on, but there are other doctrines that I think are this way. The sad thing is that a lot of these "standards" are GOOD THINGS that have a place in the Christian walk, and I by no means think that traditions are always bad! We just have to make a distinction between lines that we are drawing as a group, and lines that are drawn in the Word of God.


As for believing the Word of God, I'm going to get into dangerous territory and just ask the questions weighing on my mind.

Someone confronted me with this statement (paraphrased): "you refute the doctrine of the Trinity because it wasn't made "orthodox" until the Council of Nicaea, but the very canon of New Testament books you read was also codified at the Council of Nicaea." This caused me to do some searching on the subject, and I feel it's a valid question. On that same topic, the New Testament church themselves didn't have a New Testament to read from, only the Old Testament, and even then most of the church were Gentiles, who may not have been able to read or had access to the Old Testament. So what was their faith based on? And how can we really trust that the New Testament is a reliable canon of books if it was canonized at the same Council that made the Trinity an orthodox doctrine?

Please don't misunderstand, I believe in the New Testament, and I have done my best to live it too. But these points have bothered me. I'm just looking for sound answers for this stuff. This has been literally keeping me up at night and I'm tired of wrestling. I sincerely believe that truth is truth, and it can stand scrutiny. So I have been choosing to honestly assess these things and search for the truth, no matter how difficult or painful, even if it makes me wrong.

[Esaias]

The books that were canonised by the catholic churches in their ecumenical councils were recognized as being in two categories: a) the books, epistles, etc that everybody accepted as being authentic, and b) certain books which were disputed, that is, some held the books in this second category as authentic Scripture, others did not. I believe this second group was primarily concerned with certain "old testament" books (generally known as deuterocanonical, or apocryphal, books).

So, the New Testament books/epistles were canonized because they were what practically ALL Christians everywhere used, whether trinitarian, Arian, "Sabellian", Montanist, etc.

I always ask, "What books aren't in the New Testament that should be?" I have read numerous proposed "lost books of the New Testament", and quite honestly none of them "fit": they either teach things clearly contradictory to each other and the NT, or they just read like goofy juvenile nonsense, or they are clearly gnostic mystical speculative writings.

[Spirit&Truth]

That's a fair way to approach the question, thanks.

[Esaias]

Here's a thread on Foundation Doctrine, thought it might be of interest to you:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=52097

[Esaias]

On a thread from awhile back concerning "Apostolic Bible Study Methods" I posted this:



Well, here's what I tell new folks. I taught this to each of my children, and I tell this to anyone who doesn't already have a systematic method of studying the Bible.

1. Read the Bible, regularly, systematically. Most Bibles have a 'Bible reading plan' in the front or the back, or there are gobs of reading plans on the internet. Find one that is comfortable for you and FOLLOW IT. If you don't have one, I can give you one - it goes through the Bible, every year, as follows: Pentateuch - twice, rest of the OT (except Psalms) - once, Gospels, Epistles, and Psalms - four times. Also gives you 9 days out of the year 'free' to play catch-up if you fall behind. Requires about 6-8 chapters per day plus 2 Psalms. We divide it up into two segments - morning, and evening (makes it easier). I even have it printed out... One needs a regular, systematic, Bible reading program to develop an overall familiarity with the Bible.

2. Study by Book and Chapter instead of by 'random verses'. Pick a book, and go through it starting in chapter one, and study one chapter at a time. No hopping and skipping around.

3. Study sytematically. Read the chapter once all the way through. You can do background research if you want (who wrote it, when it was written, what occasioned the writing, etc) but basic study requires nothing but a Bible and maybe a dictionary. After reading the chapter once, read it again, this time looking for commandments. Find any and all commands you can in the chapter, write them down. Then read it again, this time looking for promises. Write them down. Read it again, looking for examples, both good and bad. Write them down. Read it again, looking for warnings. Write them down. Then read the chapter again all the way through. Move on to the next chapter. Keep a notebook, organised by 'book and chapter' (ie 'Romans, chapter 1') and 'subject heading' (commands, promises, examples, warnings). You can add other subject headings later on as you get more used to this approach.

4. Pray for wisdom. Trust God to lead you. Ask him to lead you, to give you understanding of his word. Expect him to this. And be willing to accept what is plainly written and clearly stated in the word.

5. Meditate on the word constantly. Ponder it. Rephrase it. Imagine yourself explaining to someone else what you have read and studied. Ask questions like 'What does this mean? Why did God say that? How does this apply to me? How can I put that into operation in my life?' Memorise Psalm 1 if you have to, it will help motivate you to study.

6. Do the word. Obey the commands, believe and claim the promises, follow the examples, heed the warnings. Bible study just to increase head knowledge is pointless and will just make the flames of hell hotter. Do the word, put it into practice. Look for opportunities. Make the changes in your lifestyle. Pray about how to incorporate the word into your daily living. You're a disciple, which means you model your life on the teachings of Jesus, you follow him, you 'put on the Lord' (like a man puts on a suit) which means you conform your life to the Teacher you are following. (If you're not a disciple you don't need more Bible study, you need evangelism! You need to hear and believe the gospel!)

This is a basic study method that will get anyone started. Later on, they can find another method more suited to their needs, or develop their own. Keeping notes is important. Periodically reviewing one's notes is also important. This approach helps to get the mind saturated with the word of God, so you begin to think biblically.

'The devil don't like it, cause my mind's... staaaaaaaaayed on Jeeeeeeesus!'

What I am not certain of is how to answer the question 'where do I start?' I am almost tempted to say it doesn't matter, start anywhere, you'll eventually wind up at the same destination if you keep at it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What I am not certain of is how to answer the question 'where do I start?' I am almost tempted to say it doesn't matter, start anywhere, you'll eventually wind up at the same destination if you keep at it.

I've been pondering this one for awhile since I originally wrote the above.

I've concluded, at this point, that the answer is "It depends". It depends on the Bible student's background and general familiarity with Scripture and Bible doctrine. I believe that a new convert should begin with a catechetical type approach, not so much in a question and answer format, but in regards to a basic topical summary of fundamental doctrines.

For example, we have a Profession of Faith (or Confession of Faith) which is a summary statement of basic Gospel truths:

...We declare the Gospel which we have received, in which we stand, and by which we are saved:
That Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. And that he was seen of Peter, then of the Twelve, and then was seen of many faithful witnesses, and of James, and then lastly of Paul.
And we bow the knee, and confess with our mouth, that:
JESUS CHRIST is Lord, the Son of God, the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature, by whom were all things created that are in heaven and in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers, all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the pre-eminence. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
For unto us a child is born,
And unto us a Son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His NAME shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. And of the increase of his government there shall be no end.
And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the nations, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Let us endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. For,
There is one Body, and one Spirit, even as we are called in one Hope of our calling. One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.
Concerning them that are asleep, let us not sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe Jesus died, and rose again, even so them which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;
They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father,
To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

As can be seen, this Profession of Faith is strictly Bible verses arranged in a confessional format. Learning this (even memorizing it!) would provide a new believer with a real basic summary of basic Bible teachings (things we believe). It also provides a model for study/teaching. Each main point can be taken as the subject heading of a study, which can be as simple or as in depth as one wishes.

Using it as an outline, the course of study might look like this:

1. The Work of Christ - the cross, atonement, pardon, and the Resurrection of Christ.
2. The Identity of Christ - Role as Firstborn and Son of God, Messiah, First fruits from the Dead, Creator, Lord, Head of the Church, the Incarnation and God-Manifestation, Governor and Kingship.
3. Christian Unity and the Basis of Fellowship - One church, One Holy Ghost, One Hope, One Lord (one Biblical Christology), One Faith (belief and doctrine), One Baptism (in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins as the answer of a good conscience towards God), One God (Biblical monotheism).
4. Resurrection and Final Judgment (the endpoint of personal, and collective, human destiny).

Once those basic concepts were understood (Biblically), then one could move directly into whole book studies, probably beginning with one of the four Gospels. I would recommend after that, beginning with Genesis and working through the Pentateuch, with possibly weaving in some of the general epistles (Peter's, James, John's epistles). Then followed by 1 Corinthians, the OT wisdom/poetry books (Proverbs, Psalms, etc), Paul's other epistles, Acts, then finally Romans (the theological magnum opus of the NT). Then working through the Prophets and the Histories in the OT, concluding with Revelation.

I'm sure there are other ways to approach it, as well.

[Esaias]

One thing I notice about Paul's declaration of faith, it begins with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as an historical fact attested to by known witnesses. In other words, the basis of our faith is the historically certain and provable event of the Resurrection of Christ, and not a series of "doctrines". The doctrines are believable because they are taught by those credible witnesses and students of the Guy Who Rose From The Dead.

Everything flows from that central, historical fact, that Jesus really did resurrect and is alive, immortal, right now.

If, however, our faith is based on doctrines, then if one or more of those are re evaluated, our faith is liable to be shaken and even overthrown.

I became a Christian because I discovered Jesus did in fact resurrect, His apostles were credible historical witnesses to an event which has proven to be THE single most monumental event in all history. So, I try to understand what all they taught, what they believed, how they did things, etc. If at some point I discover I was confused or misinformed, and have to revise something, my FAITH is intact, because my beliefs flow out of my faith, and not the other way around.

I do not believe Jesus rose from the dead because I am a Christian and His resurrection is a cardinal tenet of Christian beliefs. Rather, I am a Christian because I believe He rose from the dead. Everything else flows from that, and consists in nothing else than a constant search for a more accurate understanding of what they actually taught.