Light doctrine

[Amanah]

Teachings against the light doctrine which sees two classes of people in Revelation 20-22

Originally Posted by Esaias

Revelation 21:1-8 KJV
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. [6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. [7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Here, it is said the tabernacle of God is with men, and THEY shall be His people, and He will be THEIR God. This indicates that whoever is left during this period are the people of God. All mankind that are left (who make it past the Judgment Day) are now the people of God. I do not see where there is indicated two classes of people here, there is simply the people of God.

Revelation 21:9 KJV
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Now we come to an intermission, an explanatory vision that will detail the makeup of the Bride of Christ.

Revelation 21:10 KJV
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:22-27 KJV
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. [23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. [24] And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. [25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. [26] And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. [27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The idea here is that the city is lit by the Lamb, Christ is the light of the city. And, the nations of them that are saved shall walk in that light, that is, the light of Christ. Again, this indicates that all nations will have become the people of God, like here:

Psalm 82:8 KJV
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

The glory and honour of the nations shall be brought into the city, meaning all nations will recognise and honour the role the church has played in bringing the light of God to all the world. It is clear there is a hierarchy of sorts, as indicated here:

Luke 19:15-19 KJV
And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. [16] Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. [17] And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. [18] And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. [19] And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

In other words, there is a degree of rewards, indicating a hierarchy of some kind. I wouldn't press the idea of ruling ten or five cities literally, as this is clearly a parable, but it does illustrate there is some kind of hierarchy of rewards.

Nothing shall enter the city, that is, participate in the city's benefits, bringing the honour and glory of the nations into the city, etc, except those that are written in the Book of Life. This indicates that the city shall not be defiled, defilement is impossible. Why? Because all people are now the people of God. The principle of course applies to today, in that one cannot get into the city unless one is in the Book of Life (the two are essentially synonymous), but the intended contrast is between the condition described here, and the previous condition described in chapter 11:

Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. [2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Whereas previously the holy city was being trampled by the ungodly heathen, now the holy city shall be pure and untrampled, that is to say, utterly purified and utterly victorious.

Revelation 22:1-5 KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. [3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: [4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. [5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Here is another vision, showing the city having a river of life proceeding out of the throne of God and Christ. The life giving water supplies the city, and the tree of life. The tree of life is what supplies the healing to the nations. This is describing the fact that God and Christ are the source of life and healing to the nations, and God and Christ and that healing are found in the holy city (the Bride of Christ). This is NOT saying there are people outside the city who need to eat the leaves of the tree of Life in order to survive, during the age after the final judgment. What it is saying is that the Tree of Life (representative of the death of Christ) heals the nations (brings them back into submission to God, so that eventually all mankind would be "the people of God" as described in the previous chapter), and that healing is found in the church, because the church is where the throne of God and Christ is located, from which the water of Life flows.

What is being described is not so much a calendar of events, but a condition particular to the Bride and the nations, which becomes fully realised after the general resurrection and judgment when evil is destroyed. The nations are to be healed, which means brought back into fellowship with God and purified of their uncleanness. Which, as we already saw, is the condition that prevails among the nations (chapter 21).

So the "healing of the nations" is not some process that occurs AFTER the final judgment, but rather is the stated goal and purpose of the Tree of Life (the cross, the Gospel message). when the nations are healed, they will be "the people of God and He will be their God". They will no longer belong to various gods, and be "not-His-people". Instead, they will be joined with redeemed Israel as the people of God, as they were originally meant to be.

[Amanah]

Continuing

Originally Posted by Esaias

I do not know what his overall cheme of interpretation is. Knowing the CACI has some roots with the WWCOG, I would tend to believe their eschatology is largely historicist, in some sense or another. What you have mentioned about his approach to Revelation 21-22 is similar in basic form to what a lot of premillennialists have come up with, whether they were historicist or futurist. That is, they see in the Millennium a two-fold division of mankind, one the first resurrection/church, and the other the "rest of those who survive the Second Advent". This two fold division is then (erroneously) carried forward to the general resurrection and Judgment Day and beyond, so that the division continues into eternity in some fashion.

But I think the clearest and most consistent understanding is what I have just posted, namely that after the general resurrection all mankind will be the people of God, the nations will have been healed because they are now the people of God, and the holy city is seen "descending from heaven to earth" meaning the divine reality we currently look forward to (eternal life with God) is at that point an earthly reality (ie it is no longer future and a subject of faith but becomes current and a matter of real existence and experience).

He is also trying to have a variation of "Light Doctrine" where commandment keepers get to sit on the thrones and the non-commandment keepers-but-still-Pentecostals get to wait the tables. So there is that.

[Amanah]

Continuing

Originally Posted by Esaias

Depends on whether you take a postmillennial view or a premillennial view. Personally, I am a premillennialist. So, the way I understand Revelation 20 is this:

There is the first resurrection, which is the resurrected new covenant Israel. The other nations are no longer under the influence of the deceiving power so they are instead under the influence of the church/Israel. This period continues for a long, long time (I do not believe the millennium is strictly a literal 1000 years, but rather it is symbolic of a long, extended period of time in comparison to the other time periods given in Revelation).

Eventually, the deceiving power is no longer restrained and the "nations which are the in the four corners of the earth" are deceived into waging war against the church/Israel. They are destroyed, and the general resurrection and final judgment follows, and whoever is not in the Book of Life is destroyed, leaving only the saints.

That there can be resurrected saints on earth after the Second Advent (as it is termed) while also there being unresurrected people is a difficulty that many have trouble with. Many think this implies some kind of "second chance at salvation" for those who prior to the return of Jesus had rejected Him. But the Bible, including Revelation, is clear, that when He returns His ENEMIES are destroyed. The Beast, the False Prophet, and their "armies" (followers, supporters, allies) are destroyed at His return.

So these "other people" aren't His enemies who "now have a second chance". Rather, they are the nations other than Israel who are now the primary subjects of the Gospel message.

The plan of God involves Him choosing a people (Israel), redeeming them from their stubborn iniquity, and then sending THEM to the rest of the nations. Currently it seems we are in the phase in which the Gospel is primarily going to Israel. This of course doesn't mean non-Israelites cannot be joined to the Lord, anymore than the Exodus meant non-Israelites were prohibited from serving God and being among His people. But God's primary focus has been Israel, first in getting them to be a nation in covenant with them, and then second in getting them REDEEMED because they had sold themselves to other gods for nothing of value.

Once God has gotten Israel's act together (which is what has been slowly but surely happening since the first century), then the other nations will become the primary focus of the Divine Plan.

People also have the idea that "if there are other people in the Millennium then they somehow get saved without the new birth" but I have always wondered why that would be? The fact that the saints have been resurrected and are established as the government of God upon the earth doesn't mean people don't need to be or can't be born again. I just never understood the reasoning. People need to hear about Jesus, they need to get right with God and be baptised in His Name, they need to be filled with the power of the Holy Ghost.

I think maybe people think that if Jesus returned, then the Holy Ghost couldn't be given to anyone? Because He said "If I go not away the Comforter would not come"? But this has to do with His Ascension, not necessarily His "absence". And people say that Jesus being back would mean these people didn't have faith, they would see Him literally. But Thomas and the other disciples saw Him after His resurrection and they are said to have faith. So just because Jesus was back and the saints were resurrected would in no way preclude people repenting, being baptised in His Name, and receiving the Holy Ghost in response to the Gospel.

I think the issue is not about supposed "second chances" or even "second classes of people" but is simply about different phases of the advance of God's Plan from Israel to all the nations, tribes, families, tongues, etc of the earth.

And I certainly have ALWAYS acknowledged there are issues with premillennialism, that require careful study and comparison with the Scriptures. But the alternatives (postmillennialism and amillennialism) I have found to have many more issues, which are often more serious and problematic than anything I have found with Biblical premillennialism (as opposed to goofy dispensational or other futurist variations of millennial eschatologies).

[Esaias]

So, apparently the "Light Doctrine" is closely connected to "Bride and Friend of the Bridegroom" doctrine. Seems like the latter is a logical extension of the former. I guess one could hold to Light Doctrine and not Bride vs Friend doctrine, but it seems that the Bride - Friend doctrine requires some kind of Light Doctrine?

What's interesting to me is how the Light Doctrine seems to have evolved from an original concept that made sense into whatever it is these days.

The "Evening Light" concept among many Pentecostals at the beginning of the 20th century, especially Oneness Pentecostals, was that everyone is required to walk in the "Light" that God had made available, and that God had now made available the current Light (Holy Ghost baptism, Jesus' Name baptism, Oneness, etc) and so everyone was required to get in line with it. Back in the day, say the 1800s, this Light hadn't been revealed, so the people back then had to walk in the Light they had. But now, everybody is expected to get right with all the Light that was being revealed. Somehow, that morphed into "some folks are still stuck in last century's Light but that's okay they are walking in all they know at the moment"?

[Amanah]

For JW the light doctrine is that in addition to Acts 2:38, there is:
*A revival of Sabbath keeping and festivals
*A understanding of a resurrection to immortality vs a rapture
"A coming kingdom where God's immortal kingdom will teach the nations to walk in the law and culture of the kingdom

[Amanah]

Continuing

Originally Posted by Esaias

The book I am still trying to work on doesn't really even get to Revelation, since I am a firm believer that people do err when they try to tackle Revelation without a foundation in Genesis and the Old Testament and the "big picture".

But as far as the immediate subject about the successive phases of the advance of the Plan of God, let me say this: this is my current understanding. I am not super dogmatic about premillennialism or the millennium, there are some things I am pretty sure of but I acknowledge there are difficulties with all the various eschatologies, including premillennialism. I am studying things like (hopefully) everybody else is.

But let's begin here:

Part 1

Deuteronomy 4:1-8 KJV
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. [2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. [3] Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baal–peor: for all the men that followed Baal–peor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you. [4] But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day. [5] Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. [6] Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. [7] For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? [8] And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

God took Israel out of Egypt and they were to be a witness to the nations, who were to come to an understanding of how great the True God is and how great his Ways are, as a result of observing Israel's Covenant relationship with God. So we see here first God takes Israel and makes them His people so that second the other nations would learn of God and be moved to love Him and serve him.

Deuteronomy 4:32-37 KJV
For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? [33] Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? [34] Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? [35] Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. [36] Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire. [37] And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

Israel was a unique thing, God's calling of them and making them His people was something He had not done before. It was an expansion of what He did with Abraham, calling a man to be His friend and to know His ways, speaking directly with him and teaching him. So He called that man's descendants, directly speaking with them, to make them undeniably His people:

Deuteronomy 4:20 KJV
But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

And, as seen in the first quotation, the intention was so that the other nations would learn of God. God was not going to reveal Himself to each nation on earth by signs and wonders, He did that with Israel alone. Rather, He would then reveal Himself to the other nations by His chosen witnesses, Israel:

Isaiah 43:9-12 KJV
Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. [10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [11] I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. [12] I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Israel was to be God's witnesses to all the world that Jehovah alone is the true God. The other nations were to learn from Israel, and serve God. So there is a two-part phase to God's plan: first He calls Israel, then Israel is to be the witnesses to the other nations. Abraham was to be a "blessing to all families of the earth", and this is how it was to be fulfilled.

Unfortunately, as we all know, Israel largely failed their mission. While it can be said there was some success, in that even their failures and disobedience was used to spread the knowledge of God throughout the surrounding nations, it was in reality a defective witness they providing. That is, it was mixed. In fact, what we see largely happening is this:

Ezekiel 36:17-23 KJV
Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. [18] Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: [19] And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. [20] And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. [21] But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. [22] Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. [23] And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Israel disobeyed, and was deported from their land, and they caused the name of God to be blasphemed and profaned as the heathen saw these Israelites scattered out of their land. "Oh, these are the people of Jehovah, huh?" But God says the heathen will know that He is God when He is sanctified in Israel before their eyes. Again, this is a repeat of the basic Plan, the heathen know God through the witness and testimony of His people, for good or ill. If His people give a bad testimony by their lawlessness and sinfulness, then the heathen have no regard for God. If however His people are a living example of God's Word being true, then the heathen come to know that Jehovah is truly God.

Ezekiel 36:24-36 KJV
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [28] And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. [29] I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. [30] And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. [31] Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. [32] Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. [33] Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. [34] And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. [35] And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. [36] Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

Since God's people had defiled themselves by their disobedience, their witness was no good. So God Himself would cleanse them and cause them to be obedient, by giving them a new heart and a new spirit. As a result of the blessings of this new redeemed condition, the heathen would now know assuredly that Jehovah is God who does all these things. So the Plan now has a redemption phase. Israel was supposed to be the Witness to the nations, but had sinned. So God must reclaim them to obedience so they can be the Witness they were called to be.

[Amanah]

Continuing

Originally Posted by Esaias

Part 2

This is the purpose of the New Covenant, to give Israel a new heart and a new spirit:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

These people were to receive a new heart and a new spirit by God making a new covenant with them, writing His law in their heart and in their mind, in their inward parts. Then they could truly be God's people, and He could truly be their God. Which of course means they could then fulfill their duty as His Witnesses to all the world.

The fact they were to receive a new covenant did not mean they would cease to be a people. The idea that the new covenant somehow abrogated the existence of Israel as a people simply doesn't make any sense, as the new covenant is specifically made with those people:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: [36] If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. [37] Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The Plan still stands, Israel is to be God's Witnesses to the nations of the earth, only they are to do it under the new covenant. Because they failed to do it under the old covenant, God would redeem them and purify them with a new covenant, so they could perform their divinely appointed purpose.

Luke 1:67-75 KJV
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, [68] Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [69] And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; [70] As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: [71] That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; [72] To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; [73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, [74] That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, [75] In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Christ came to redeem His people, to purify them so they could serve God in holiness and righteousness. By doing this, as we saw already through the other Scripture references, they would be God's Witnesses to all the families of the earth. This is what was promised to Abraham, that he would be a blessing to all the families of the earth, that in his seed all the nations and families of the earth would be blessed. His descendants would bring that blessing to the other nations, but they could only do it through Christ, the true SEED of Abraham. Because only through Christ do they receive and enter in the new covenant, and receive a genuine change of heart by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 1:8 KJV
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Israel, in the new covenant, was to be witnesses to Christ unto the uttermost part of the earth. They were to take the knowledge of God to all nations:

Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The new covenant, Gospel "dispensation" or "age" is the mission assigned to Israel in the beginning, to be the people of God and to be witnesses to all the world about the truth of God, to teach them to love and obey Him. So again we see the phases involved, Israel --> the nations.

Isaiah 2:2-5 KJV
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. [3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. [4] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. [5] O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Mountains are used in Scripture to represent nations. The mountain of the house of the Lord is the nation of the Temple of God, that is to say, it is the redeemed new covenant Israel. It is prophesied that it will be exalted above the other mountains, and all nations shall flow unto it. Many people would go to the mountain of God to learn of His Ways, because the law goes forth from Zion. That is, the people of God (redeemed new covenant Israel) speak forth the Word of God to teach all nations. God would judge the nations, that is, He would exercise rule over them and discipline them. How was He to do this? By the Law/Word going forth from Zion (redeemed Israel). This is why JACOB is called to "walk in the light of the Lord", so they could get busy with the Plan and quit being a hindrance to what God is doing.

Daniel 2:44-45 KJV
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. [45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Daniel 7:13-14 KJV
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:27 KJV
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Here in Daniel chapters 2 and 7, we see that the Kingdom of God would stand victorious over the kingdoms of man, that the SAINTS or people of God would possess the dominion and rule, that the "greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven shall be given" to them. All dominions would serve and obey God, because His saints have been given the dominion and they are the ISRAEL - the Divine Ruler, or "God's Prince", the representative of God upon the earth to teach all nations to serve and obey God.

Revelation 20:4-8 KJV
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Here we have the first resurrection, which is the overcoming saints of God, the elect of God, the church of God, the "144,000 of the 12 tribes" and the "great multitude which no man can number who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb". That is to say, redeemed new covenant Israel, who having survived the persecutions of the Beast and the dragon are now victorious (just as in Daniel). As we saw in Isaiah, they are destined to be God's Witnesses and the nations are destined to obey God, being taught by Zion. In Revelation, we see their overcoming the tyranny of the Beast and enjoying the first resurrection, and "reigning".

Then, after the period called "the thousand years", there are these nations in the four quarters of the earth who are deceived by the serpent power to make war against God and His saints. It is CLEAR that these "nations" who are deceived to make war against the camp of the saints (the church) are NOT themselves part of the first resurrection. Therefore it necessarily follows that there are people simultaneously existing with the first resurrection overcomers. Two people groups - one resurrected, one clearly not because they are deceived and then destroyed by Divine intervention.

So that there are two distinct groups during the millennium seems inescapable to me. Regardless of how a person understands the millennium, whether premil, postmil, or amil, there is no denying that there are two contemporaneous groups of people, one called the first resurrection, and the other contributing to those who finally get deceived into making war against the first group.

[Amanah]

Continuing

Originally Posted by Esaias

Part 3

(So that there are two distinct groups during the millennium seems inescapable to me. Regardless of how a person understands the millennium, whether premil, postmil, or amil, there is no denying that there are two contemporaneous groups of people, one called the first resurrection, and the other contributing to those who finally get deceived into making war against the first group.)

From a premillennial perspective, the only way I see that this can be, is we have the resurrected saints (the overcomers of the new covenant commonwealth of Israel), and others who were not resurrected. These are not the enemies of God who were part of the Beast system that warred against Christ, for those had already been destroyed prior to the beginning of the thousand years. They must therefore be the nations that are now the objects of God's Plan. During the millennium, however long it may last (the 1000 years being a symbolic time frame indicating a greatly extended time), the resurrected church is reigning upon the earth, and the nations that are left are walking in the Light of the Lord.

Yet the fact there is a final rebellion requires that those who participate are not resurrected yet. They are natural people who, the serpent power being unrestrained, are subject to being deceived into trying to (once again) rebel against God. Not that everyone outside the church is deceived, but that there is a general deception that occurs among these people. Which of course means they are also unregenerate. It would hardly make sense for regenerate people to be massively deceived into rebelling against God. So while the nations are learning God's ways and are subject to the rule and dominion of God through His church, it is clear there are unregenerate persons still around.

Zechariah 14:16-19 KJV
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. [17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. [18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. [19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This prophecy in Zechariah speaks of a war against the people of God, who (the enemies) are then defeated. AFTER that, all the families of the earth are to be worshipping God in Jerusalem. This is parallel to the prophecies in Isaiah where the nations go up to the Mountain of the Lord to learn of His ways. Here, there is a warning about those who fail to worship God: there is disciplinary action taken against them. This clearly implies that during this period, there are those who are unregenerate. Or at least, not entirely fully obedient. Which makes sense as this is a TEACHING phase for the other nations. The ones who fail to "go up to worship" aren't obliterated, they are chastised. The context is the nations that came against Jerusalem who are left after the destruction of Israel's enemies.

Remember, the Big Plan was for Israel to be a Witness to all nations and families. Meaning, there is a two-part phase to God's Plan: first Israel, then the rest of the nations. Currently, we are in the "God is redeeming Israel" phase, as the Gospel is going to the multitude of nations that Israel was to become. when the fullness of the nations be come in, "all Israel will be saved". More importantly, it is THUS that all Israel would be saved. Therefore, the "multitude of nations coming in" is specifically the nations of Israel. Once that occurs, once "all Israel is saved", that is, once Israel has received the redemption as a people, once it has been fulfilled, then the OTHER nations must be the focus.

This is because the Plan is Israel ----> the nations, that is, Israel is to be the Witness to the nations. Israel must be redeemed in order to fulfill that destiny. Israel is still in the process of being redeemed, until the fullness of the (Israel) nations are come in.

This of course does not mean that people outside of "Israel" are not subjects of the Gospel message, or that they cannot enter in. When God took a nation out of Egypt He also took a "mixed multitude" with them. There were "strangers in Israel" who were subject to the Law of God just as Israel was, they learned of God and followed Him. But that did not obviate the Plan for Israel to be God's Witnesses to all nations, for even though there were strangers with Israel in Deuteronomy, the commission to the other nations was still declared.

Revelation 20:7-15 KJV
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

After that final rebellion, there is the general judgment scene. ALL the dead are before God. This is the great judgment that is mentioned throughout Scripture. Not a judgment upon various nations for various things, resulting in various temporal punishments. But a judgment upon each individual for their works. And the final disposition of each one is determined by whether or not their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. AFTER THIS EVENT there does not exist anyone who is NOT in the Book of Life. Since death and hell (the grave, hades) are destroyed in the Lake of Fire along with all sinners (transgressors), anyone left is clearly immortal. There are no "leaf munchers outside the gates" who need Divine Salad to stay alive, all people who exist at this time are immortal because there simply is no more death, period.

Now I realise this interpretation of events is premillennial, and non-premillennialists will of course disagree with what is here posted. And I also realise this interpretation may certainly raise questions (I expect it too). I myself still have some questions. But I cannot help but see "premillennialism" as what is being described here in Revelation, at least in the most basic sense of the term.

The first resurrection is distinguished and contrasted with "the rest of the dead lived not again until" after the thousand years. How do the rest of the dead live again at the end of the thousand years? By standing before God, coming OUT of "death and hell and the sea". Meaning, the rest of the dead "live again" by a very real genuine resurrection out of the grave. This however requires that the first resurrection be of the same kind, meaning, a very real resurrection "out of the grave".

Revelation 20:4-5 KJV
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If the first resurrection is simply a religious symbolic resurrection, meaning "being born again", then it is saying the rest of the dead are born again at the end of this period. But we know that is not true, because the rest of the dead are judged and at least some are cast into the Lake of Fire. If on the other hand, the "rest of the dead living again" is a genuine actual resurrection, then the first must be of the same kind otherwise there is no basis for the comparison. The saints "live" BUT "the rest of the dead lived not" meaning whatever the first experienced, the second did not. UNTIL the thousand years were finished. Meaning the second DID experience what the first did at the end of the thousand years. And the only thing that EVERYONE is said to experience is resurrection from the grave, whether unto Life or unto Damnation:

John 5:28-29 KJV
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

For JW the light doctrine is that in addition to Acts 2:38, there is:
*A revival of Sabbath keeping and festivals
*A understanding of a resurrection to immortality vs a rapture
"A coming kingdom where God's immortal kingdom will teach the nations to walk in the law and culture of the kingdom

Seems every movement has two options:

1. We have the Truth, so conform or burn.

2. We have the Truth, so it would be cool if you conformed, but if not you still get some benefits.

Number 1 will keep the movement somewhat small. Number 2 is what I would call the McDojo approach to religion.

What is a McDojo?

There are two kinds of combat sports/martial arts gyms, the Fight Gym, and the McDojo or "Family Martial Arts" gym. The fight Gym is like an old school boxing gym. You sign up to learn to box. As a result, they tend to be small, can't pay the bills, not too many people want to pay money to learn how to get punched in the face. The McDojo however is all about how you too can learn teh dedly martial arts BUT you don't have to actually fight or do any kind of serious sparring or mess up your makeup. Fitness classes for everyone! They appeal to the masses and make lots of money and open up branch gyms and franchises. But most of their students would get obliterated in the ring or the octagon by people who train at the Fight Gyms.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Seems every movement has two options:

1. We have the Truth, so conform or burn.

2. We have the Truth, so it would be cool if you conformed, but if not you still get some benefits.

Number 1 will keep the movement somewhat small. Number 2 is what I would call the McDojo approach to religion.

What is a McDojo?

There are two kinds of combat sports/martial arts gyms, the Fight Gym, and the McDojo or "Family Martial Arts" gym. The fight Gym is like an old school boxing gym. You sign up to learn to box. As a result, they tend to be small, can't pay the bills, not too many people want to pay money to learn how to get punched in the face. The McDojo however is all about how you too can learn teh dedly martial arts BUT you don't have to actually fight or do any kind of serious sparring or mess up your makeup. Fitness classes for everyone! They appeal to the masses and make lots of money and open up branch gyms and franchises. But most of their students would get obliterated in the ring or the octagon by people who train at the Fight Gyms.

McDojo is Charismatic Martial arts. Individuals who have a Dojo and teach nonsense. Hurt or kill their students, and call chi movement a martial art, when it is utter baloney. Some idiot watched Shaw Bros lip sync Kung Fu, and Naruto then applies what they mimic in real time.

Jesus is tolerant, and a gentleman. Just like He told His apostles. When they saw a man casting out demons in His name, but wasn’t one of His followers. He told His apostles to leave the guy alone. Because no one could do miracles in Jesus name and bad mouth Him. I don’t want to be that guy. I don’t want to merrily go on my ecclesiastical way, and find out I’m not following the Shepard.

These Senseis in these dojos are dangerous, not only they can hurt or kill their students physically. But they harm their students mentally. Where they take their mumbo jumbo out into the real world and get knocked on their tail gate. Or dead.

Same with Church.

I don’t want God making a McDojo video about me.