144,000 (Micheal the Disciple)

[Sister Alvear]

I know there are hundreds of opinions but would like to ask especially those that believe the church will go through tribulation what is your opinion about the 144.000. Thanks

[Michael The Disciple]

Yes I will post something on that here soon.

[Michael The Disciple]

In a way the message of the 144000 is THE message of the end time. It is interconnected with other prophetic truths. Hopefully I can start showing what I think is the truth of it tommorow.

[Sister Alvear]

thanks...someone asked me for some opinions and I thought about you...we may not always see eye to eye on every thing but I deeply respect your opinion because I see you study things out before you speak.
May God bless you and yours.

[Michael The Disciple]

I will start here.

Rev. 14:1-5

1And I looked , and, lo , a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth . These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

They stand on Mt. Zion. The book of Revelation being highly symbolic is obviously not so easy to understand. Is this on Earth or in Heaven? Is the Church ever considered as Mt. Zion?

Heb. 12:22-24

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the livingGod, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are writtenin heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect , 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The writer (probably Paul) tells us the Church is Mt. Zion. Now I believe the nation of Israel is still beloved for the Fathers sake we know the Church is primarily Gods Israel.

Gal. 6:15-16

15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God

The Church is techically the Israel of God. The 144000 are standing on Mt. Zion the Church. Yes I know there is another part of this teaching to consider but for the moment I am focusing on this portion.

They are singing before the Throne. Does this necessarily have to be happening Heaven?

Note that Elijah while standing here on Earth told Obidiah he was standing before God.

1 Kings 18:15

15 And Elijah said , As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand , I will surely shew myself unto him to day.

So in the spirit we can be standing before God while we are actually on Earth. I believe this is the situation here. They sing a song no other persons can sing becuae they have had a unique experience in Christ.

They are said to be virgins. No doubt in the spiritual sense since we are told elsewhere the marriage bed is honorable. These are end time overcomers. They have not been defiled by the teachings and practices of the modern Babylonian Churches.

They are standing with Jesus the Lamb. They are his disciples not those of me. They have forsaken all for his sake. They are the FIRSTFRUITS to God. They are the first group of people since the beginning of the Church to walk without lie and having no guile in them. They are perfect in Christ. The Lamb of God sees no fault in them.

This has always been Gods intent for his people but its clear that few through history few have attained this. God has reserved a time that he will insure by his grace that a good number of people will get there and will be examples to the wider Church at large.

Through the maze of false teaching in the end times light will shine through as faithful Ministers will see more and more their calling is to present every man perfect in Christ.

28Whom we preach , warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:29Whereunto I also labour , striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily .

Any Ministry not devoted to this goal walks without understanding. So out of the faithful few who point the souls of men in that direction will come forth this firstfruits end time group of 144,000. They are I believe the same group of people we find in the vision of the Woman and the Manchild of Rev. 12.

More soon hopefully.

[Steve Epley]

"Who's on first?"

[Michael The Disciple]

Who is the Manchild of Rev.12? What is his role in end times? The 144,000

1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon
her head a crown of twelve stars:

The woman is the New Testament Church. She is clothed with the sun.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON CHRIST. Gal. 3:27
The moon is under her feet.
And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS. Eph. 2:6
On her head is a crown of 12 stars.
This speaks of the mind of the Apostles.
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine:

2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth and pained to be delivered.

It is what is in her that is giving her pain.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The dragon is satan and the ten horns are endtime nations.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. Rev. 18:12

His tail represnts the false teaching of the end time.

15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. Isaiah 9:15-16

His tail (doctrine) draws a third of the stars of heaven and casts them to the earth.

The stars of heaven speaks of the saints who dwell in heavenly places in Christ. Multitudes are deceived and fall from their heavenly position IN CHRIST. They return to earthly affections and desires.

The devil stands before the woman to destroy the fruit of her womb. Why does he focus his attack on the CHILD?

And she brought forth a MAN CHILD, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God
and to his throne.

When we see who the child is we will understand why the enemy wants it destroyed!

And he that OVERCOMETH and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron: Rev. 2:26-27

The Manchild represents end time overcomers! Their purpose will change the direction of the Church. God says he will come for a glorious church.

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, wrinkle, or any such thing: but that it should be holy and woithout blemish. Eph. 5:27

How do we get from where we are today to the goal God has set for his people? That's what the Man Child is all about.

[Michael The Disciple]

The Manchild-144,000

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rev. 12:5

Right now there is a small group of end time disciples that take God seriously. They are being trained and disciplined by his word and Spirit. They are "hidden away" in their mothers womb. This insures they will not be carried away in pride and move ahead of the plan of God. It looks like to the church in general that they are a failure! Their preaching of JUDGMENT and PERFECTION gives grief and pain. They meet in small home churches and are called "cultists".

God sees it another way! The church in general has lost its way long ago. It seems that unity and full stature is just a visionaries dream! But wait! God is working his "quick work".

Caught up to the throne of God? This is not referring to what we call the rapture! I believe there will be a literal coming of Jesus to gather his saints in the clouds. The catching up of the Man Child is on the same spiritual level as these other two notable experiences in scripture.

I knew a man In Christ above 14 years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one CAUGHT UP to the third heaven.
2 Cor. 12:2

After this I looked and behold a door was in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said, COME UP HITHER and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediatley I was in the Spirit: and behold a throne was set in heaven and ONE SAT ON THE THRONE. Rev. 4:1-2

Here we have two men, leaders of Gods people taken up to hear heavenly things. After Gods purpose in bringing them there is fulfilled he then sent them BACK! Was it literal or "in the spirit"? John said he was in the Spirit. Paul said he could not tell. Nonetheless the experience was so real to both of them they mentioned it in their writings!

When the time is right, when God has brought the end time overcomers to the place he can use them they WILL RECEIVE A LIKE EXPERIENCE! They will be caught up to God. They will receive end time instruction. Their doctrine will be the doctrine of heaven and they will be given a "rod of iron" to back it up with!

When they"return" they have a command to FEED the people of God. The devil has chased them to the wilderness. But God already had a plan for their deliverance!

And the woman fled into the wilderness where she hath a place prepared of God THAT THEY SHOULD FEED HER THERE a thousand two hundred and three score days.

The question is: Who are the THEY who shall feed her?

They are those who UNDERSTAND. Those who have been in training for this very thing. Now their ministry is finally released! Gods power backs them up as he backed up his servant Moses in the wilderness.

And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt
by flatteries: but the people that do know their God SHALL BE STRONG AND DO EXPLOITS! Dan. 11:32

What exploits might we expect? How about multipying food?
Healing the sick? Blinding the eyes of those who seek to destroy Gods people?

And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND among the people shall INSTRUCT MANY: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil many days. Dan. 11:33

It will be the greatest time of BIBLE FEASTING in history! Christians who love Yashua but have not understood his word will be amazed as the great truths of Christ are revealed!
There will yet be a people who will come to the FULLNESS OF THE STATURE OF CHRIST!

Martyr"s? Yes! But they will rejoice that they are worthy to die for his name! Like Stephen they shall be given "dying grace".

Now when they shall fall, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan. 11:34

Even in a great time of restoration not all will heed the message. As when Israel came out of Egypt, Gods people were fed and led supernaturally but many still fell into murmuring, complaining and sin and were cut off from Gods grace.

There it is friends. Both the bitter and the sweet! Exciting and dangerous times are ahead. Question is where will you stand in that day? Where are you standing TODAY? If one cannot serve God in the green tree what will happen in the dry!

Now is the time to crucify flesh. Now is the time to yield your members as instruments of righteousness unto holiness. God is looking for a few good men and women to labor with him in that day. My end time vision-michael

[Sister Alvear]

things like this is way over my head...but I do like to read and when people ask me at least I can give them some opinions...I wish I was a deep person into Bible studies...

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The woman is the New Testament Church. She is clothed with the sun.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON CHRIST. Gal. 3:27

Are you suggesting that the woman is the bride of Christ?