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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #81  
Old 07-14-2022, 05:36 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
noun
en·​ti·​tle·​ment | \ in-ˈtī-tᵊl-mənt , en- \
Definition
1a : the state or condition of being entitled : RIGHT
b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
2 : belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges
3 : a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group
also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program

What I mean by entitlement. Specifically number two.

So are pastors entitled to tithes? If you believe that they are, could you post scripture supporting your belief?

You seem to be focused on whether or not members should tithe. I’m focused on whether or not pastors are entitled to (receive) tithes.
If the church designates a salary to their pastor I would say that they are entitled to whatever it is that church designates. There is no scripture saying pastors
Should receive tithes in the NT because, as has already been established, there is no command to tithe.
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  #82  
Old 07-14-2022, 05:58 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Thank you.

Do you agree that Paul taught these men that they should support themselves?

And the church?

With their own hands?

Edit:Which is about as opposite of taking tithes from the church as it could possibly be (just to be clear).
I believe everyone in Gods kingdom will do whatever is necessary to further the kingdom. If a person is pastoring they are probably working with their hands. Most pastors that I know have supported themselves by having their own jobs. There maybe some Bible college grads who have landed some big church, but I am sure even those pastors earn whatever is arranged caring for that assembly.
There are also cases where aged men who have invested years to grow a local church and now reap from the years of sowing. Are you suggesting that churches should not give at all to their pastors?
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  #83  
Old 07-14-2022, 06:04 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Edit:Could you share with me why you believe the pastor should receive a salary? Do you have any scripture for this belief?

The principle of muzzling the ox has nothing to do with the tithe doctrine. Do you understand that? This thread is about tithing.
1 Corinthians 9:11-16
If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
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  #84  
Old 07-14-2022, 06:24 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Could you share with me approximately how much tithe is shared with (I don’t know) singers, as opposed to the pastor in your church?
Our church invests probabably $1500-2000 annually in media and music ministry. I get a salary of $6000 a year. We have no musicians on staff that receive a salary, but I wouldn’t be opposed to it if the church resources warranted it. It is strange to strange to ask such questions.
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  #85  
Old 07-14-2022, 07:09 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
admit that I may well be confused about what you believe. I am beginning to believe you are confused by what you believe as well. Or perhaps you don’t want to admit that what you believe and what you teach are separate things.

You have said (I think) that tithing should be taught as a biblical principle. Now you say that it is not according to the Mosaic law and the Levites.

What is it then?

Deducting the Mosaic law from biblical tithing certainly limits the teaching of tithing as far as scriptural examples are concerned. I’m certain you are NOT teaching biblical tithing. I’m pretty sure of that.

So did you just make up your own tithing doctrine?

Please help me understand
.

It is really very simple. I teach that people should give cheerfully and willingly as they purpose in their own hearts. Although tithing isn’t commanded, it seems to have some importance throughout the scripture. Abraham did it out of spoils, Jacob pledged to do it out of his increase, and Moses commanded Israel to do it from agricultural resources in the land of Israel for multiple designations, Jesus acknowledged and validated it (under law), and the apostles make references to it in the epistles.

I acknowledge that we must interpret the scripture within its context and none of those examples places a command on the New Testament Church. Although, I also believe that there must be some significance to the amount 10% or why would there be so many references to it through the entirety of scripture? So I respect the views of others and each of us have the liberty to give what we feel is right.

Last edited by good samaritan; 07-14-2022 at 07:13 PM.
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  #86  
Old 07-14-2022, 08:02 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
.

It is really very simple. I teach that people should give cheerfully and willingly as they purpose in their own hearts. Although tithing isn’t commanded, it seems to have some importance throughout the scripture. Abraham did it out of spoils, Jacob pledged to do it out of his increase, and Moses commanded Israel to do it from agricultural resources in the land of Israel for multiple designations, Jesus acknowledged and validated it (under law), and the apostles make references to it in the epistles.

I acknowledge that we must interpret the scripture within its context and none of those examples places a command on the New Testament Church. Although, I also believe that there must be some significance to the amount 10% or why would there be so many references to it through the entirety of scripture? So I respect the views of others and each of us have the liberty to give what we feel is right.
Okay. Abraham did it from spoils of war. I hardly think that applies to very many in your church. I think you would agree?

The mosaic law was from crops flocks and herds. It was from the land that God gave them. If you didn’t own land you didn’t tithe. Do you agree?

The mosaic law tithe was so much about the land. I don’t think you possibly even realize that. Do you know why the Levites were given tithes?

Because, if as you say, you are teaching tithes from the Bible, shouldn’t the tithes that you teach be somewhat similar to the tithes in the Bible?

BTW you are to be commended for not running out on the tough questions. I appreciate you for that.
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  #87  
Old 07-14-2022, 08:33 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
1 Corinthians 9:11-16
If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
I’d like to parse this post a little. If you read a little earlier in the ninth chapter of 1Corinthians, you read this verse.

Have we not power to eat and to drink?

Paul was talking about the church feeding them. The reference to the altar was referring to the priests eating the sacrifices. Money didn’t go on the altar.

Carnal things that he referred to are food and drink as well. Money is not carnal. I know that may be a surprise to most on here, but carnal has to do with the body and it’s appetites.

Overall, in this book of the NT we are being taught by Paul. Paul was a Pharisee. He was an expert in the law. He learned from Gamaliel, the “Harvard professor” of the day in respect to the law. So we know he understood the law of tithing.

Why didn’t Paul just come out and say “pay us the tithes, and by the way, we don’t want food, we like money “? Was it because he was timid? Maybe he was afraid?

Maybe, it was because he understood that the tithe had another purpose. And it wasn’t to support pastors.

Paul and Peter cautioned against being taken advantage of by those that were greedy of filthy lucre. Filthy lucre is money. But we tend to ignore their warnings.

[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Tit.1

[7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
[11] Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
1Pet.5

[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Peter and Paul, who didn’t agree on some things, (Paul withstood Peter to his face) agreed that church leadership must be watched carefully when it came to filthy lucre.

When it comes to giving, which is not necessarily tithes, we have excellent teaching from the lips of Jesus in Matthew. It is pretty comprehensive. Little children, those in prison, the hungry, the cold, He covers a lot of territory. But did you know what didn’t make the list?

1. The church.
2. The pastor.

Surely you have to wonder why.

And you surely must wonder why preachers don’t use the words about giving to teach giving. It almost never happens.
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  #88  
Old 07-14-2022, 08:39 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Numbers 18:24-31
But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe. And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest. Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it. Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress. And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.
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  #89  
Old 07-14-2022, 08:48 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I believe everyone in Gods kingdom will do whatever is necessary to further the kingdom. If a person is pastoring they are probably working with their hands. Most pastors that I know have supported themselves by having their own jobs. There maybe some Bible college grads who have landed some big church, but I am sure even those pastors earn whatever is arranged caring for that assembly.
There are also cases where aged men who have invested years to grow a local church and now reap from the years of sowing. Are you suggesting that churches should not give at all to their pastors?
There are also cases where the pastor is given ALL of the tithes.

There are also cases where the pastor will tell his church that it is impossible to be saved if you don’t tithe.

Don’t doubt me.

Brother,
Do a search on YT for Greg Riggen- God’s holy tithe. Listen to the doctrine of the (then) pastor in the UPCI and the district superintendent of Kansas. It’s about two hours looong. (Just warning you).

There are so many lies about the tithe. You have to wonder at some point- why.
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  #90  
Old 07-14-2022, 08:52 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

What do you think the significance of 10% is? All of the law has spiritual fulfillments. What do you think tithing fulfills or forshadows?
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