Genesis - Who is our image?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

We are talking about types of beings, natures. Angels are not mindless robots, just because they do what God wants does not make them mindless robots and demons free will living beings. When you say angels have no will that is what you are saying


Notice the context. God is enthroned and he is surrounded by the host of heaven. He asks "who will go for US" referring to the host of angels surrounding him and a number give suggestions till one comes forth and says he will do the job

I read the context, and it's being told by a prophet what happened. The text does not say 'who will go for US', nor are they giving suggestions to God, at least in 1 Kings 22 it doesn't.

1 Kings 22:19
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

22:20
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

22:21
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22:22
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The text says a spirit came forth, not an angel. They were standing on the right and left of the throne. And since when do heavenly angels do things of their own will, especially lie?

2 Chr 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

There is nothing in that passage either that says 'who will go for us', nor is there chatter going on in regard to suggestions being made. Where did you get that from?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I read the context, and it's being told by a prophet what happened. The text does not say 'who will go for US', nor are they giving suggestions to God, at least in 1 Kings 22 it doesn't.

1 Kings 22:19
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. (angels)

Angels surround his court

22:20
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. (giving suggestions)

Some of them made suggestions

22:21
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. (one of them comes forward with his suggestion)

ONe came forward with his suggestion

The text says a spirit came forth, not an angel.

Angels ARE spirits (see Hebrews)

They were standing on the right and left of the throne. And since when do heavenly angels do things of their own will, especially lie?

It wasn't his own will. God gave him permission. Even God says he would send people strong delusions so that they will believe a lie.

There is nothing in that passage either that says 'who will go for us', nor is there chatter going on in regard to suggestions being made. Where did you get that from?

Re-read it where I embolded the parts you might have overlooked. The POINT was that God is surrounded to angels and when he asked about what to do several spoke up....they have a will. Angels are not mindless robots. They are living beings.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Angels surround his court


Some of them made suggestions


ONe came forward with his suggestion


Angels ARE spirits (see Hebrews)


It wasn't his own will. God gave him permission. Even God says he would send people strong delusions so that they will believe a lie.


Re-read it where I embolded the parts you might have overlooked. The POINT was that God is surrounded to angels and when he asked about what to do several spoke up....they have a will. Angels are not mindless robots. They are living beings.

Thanks for the clarification on this. As for them not having a will, I think it's best said (by me) that they don't act on their will rather than not having one at all. That's more accurate in my view.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

True enough, but what I read and did understand I didn't agree with, especially when he was defining English words along with it when educated people know that some words were added for clarifications and others aren't exactly translateable.

Give me an example from the article

God isn't dirt, but we are.

But it says "let us make man in OUR image after OUR likeness" and you are saying that was dirt he was referring to....If he was speaking to dirt then dirt has the same image as God. How does that make sense?

It makes no sense for God to say what He did to the angels and choose dirt to make us from

God only formed mans body from the ground. He breathed INTO man spirit and man then became a living soul. God is Spirit. Angels are spirits. Dirt is nothing.

Why not form us out of clouds? He could have done the same thing with clouds that He did with dirt, and we would have still been made in His image and likeness yet turn to a cloud when we disinegrate after death instead of dust. God didn't speak to the dirt saying that IT had an image like God, but that He was making a creation out of that dirt that would be the image and likeness of God. It's very very very very simple to me also.

Dirt is not an image. God is not dirt. God said let us make man after OUR image and after OUR likeness...if he was refering to dirt then God too has the same image as dirt

Give me a break, Prax. You are sounding just like the other guy who wants word for word or it doesn't happen. It's fact that God spoke on several occasions to inanimate objects and they did as He commanded. It doesn't have to be a conversation taking place for him to speak a simple command.

God did not speak to something like a person using pronouns. He spoke to something commanding it to happen. Big difference

Now you are being ridiculous. Totally.

no I am quite serious.

The point is the 'us' and 'our'. The rest of the sentence isn't the point.
As for dirt needing to have the image and likeness of God, consider that God is a spirit. We are not, yet we possess one. The rest of us is dirt, therefore we are made in the image and likeness of God and dirt. It's really very very very simple understanding.

WRong, context is what we go by. Grammar is determined by the entire sentence structure and not just one or two words isolated.

Also, understand that 'us' and 'our' was added for clarity, but not in the original scripts. Why did KJV need to clarify?

Why do you say they are not in the original? the KJV as well as most all other translations are translating a plural verb. Even if this is the case, then why say he is speaking to dirt? If there is no us or our, why say he is speaking to something at all?

In addition, the article you posted spoke about the different in 'make' and 'create' and how there was a difference, but I don't get that, since scripture says 'let us make man' then the very next verse says 'so God created man'. Doesn't sound like any difference to me, and that's why I told you I didn't understand what the writer of that article was talking about and that I disagreed.

Not true. God both made and created man. He made man when he formed him from what already existed, dirt. He created man when he breathed life into man and man became a living soul

Created and made are two different hebrew words

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

But they have nothing to do with it. It's also just a figure of speech that apparently existed in the time of KJV, since he added that for clarity. Why? I don't know, but the lexicon doesn't have 'us' and 'our' definitions as they are added.

You mean the dictionary. Dictionaries don't give defiitions to every word, just because they don't put a strongs number next to it does not mean the translators did not have a reason to translate a certain hebrew plural word as "let us make" or "in our image"

The grammar of these verses support this view. The grammar of Genesis 1:26 is as follows: God (plural)2 said (third person masculine singular), Let us make (first person common plural) man (singular masculine noun) in our image ("image" is a first person common plural suffix), after our likeness ("likeness" is a feminine singular noun with a first person common plural suffix)."3 The plural pronouns "us" and "our" must be referring to someone other than God because the verb used in connection with "God" is singular. If God was speaking to Himself in a plural form, or performing self-talk as some say, the pronouns would also need to be singular to modify the verb. Because they are not plural, God was truly speaking to someone else.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Thanks for the clarification on this. As for them not having a will, I think it's best said (by me) that they don't act on their will rather than not having one at all. That's more accurate in my view.

now back to the original point! Angels have a nature similiar to man and God. We all have a will that is the same. Even Adam and Eve in the beginning were not the kind that just did what they want despite what God says. Adam fell and appearently there were angels that fell too. But what of the angels that did not fall? They chose or willed to stay

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Give me an example from the article


But it says "let us make man in OUR image after OUR likeness" and you are saying that was dirt he was referring to....If he was speaking to dirt then dirt has the same image as God. How does that make sense?


God only formed mans body from the ground. He breathed INTO man spirit and man then became a living soul. God is Spirit. Angels are spirits. Dirt is nothing.



Dirt is not an image. God is not dirt. God said let us make man after OUR image and after OUR likeness...if he was refering to dirt then God too has the same image as dirt


God did not speak to something like a person using pronouns. He spoke to something commanding it to happen. Big difference


no I am quite serious.


WRong, context is what we go by. Grammar is determined by the entire sentence structure and not just one or two words isolated.


Why do you say they are not in the original? the KJV as well as most all other translations are translating a plural verb. Even if this is the case, then why say he is speaking to dirt? If there is no us or our, why say he is speaking to something at all?


Not true. God both made and created man. He made man when he formed him from what already existed, dirt. He created man when he breathed life into man and man became a living soul

Created and made are two different hebrew words

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.



You mean the dictionary. Dictionaries don't give defiitions to every word, just because they don't put a strongs number next to it does not mean the translators did not have a reason to translate a certain hebrew plural word as "let us make" or "in our image"

The grammar of these verses support this view. The grammar of Genesis 1:26 is as follows: God (plural)2 said (third person masculine singular), Let us make (first person common plural) man (singular masculine noun) in our image ("image" is a first person common plural suffix), after our likeness ("likeness" is a feminine singular noun with a first person common plural suffix)."3 The plural pronouns "us" and "our" must be referring to someone other than God because the verb used in connection with "God" is singular. If God was speaking to Himself in a plural form, or performing self-talk as some say, the pronouns would also need to be singular to modify the verb. Because they are not plural, God was truly speaking to someone else.

I've already explained my position regarding the above. I'd only be repeating myself. If there is anything new, I'd be happy to discuss it, but at this point, I'm just going round and round and so are you. Thanks though, cause I did learn a few things.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Dirt is not an image. God is not dirt. God said let us make man after OUR image and after OUR likeness...if he was refering to dirt then God too has the same image as dirt


God did not speak to something like a person using pronouns. He spoke to something commanding it to happen. Big difference

To further clarify, imagine a hunk of clay in front of you that you want to make something out of. You might say to the clay, Let's make something in our image and likeness, meaning that you want to make a form of a human out of the clay. It's accurate to include the clay in the 'us' and 'our' because what results will be both in the image and likeness of you as well as the clay. In saying this, you aren't comparing yourself to the clay, but the end product to both you and the clay.

You proceed to make a human image from the clay, resulting in a product that has both human and clay attributes. This is how I see what God is saying in verse 26. We have attributes of dirt (what we return to after death) and God Himself (the spirit and soul we have).

Even if you don't agree, does it explain my position better to you?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I've already explained my position regarding the above. I'd only be repeating myself. If there is anything new, I'd be happy to discuss it, but at this point, I'm just going round and round and so are you. Thanks though, cause I did learn a few things.

This shows me you did not really read what I said. You mentioned something from the article about english words and I asked you for an example from the article. You have not yet done that.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

To further clarify, imagine a hunk of clay in front of you that you want to make something out of. You might say to the clay, Let's make something in our image and likeness, meaning that you want to make a form of a human out of the clay. It's accurate to include the clay in the 'us' and 'our' because what results will be both in the image and likeness of you as well as the clay. In saying this, you aren't comparing yourself to the clay, but the end product to both you and the clay.

You proceed to make a human image from the clay, resulting in a product that has both human and clay attributes. This is how I see what God is saying in verse 26. We have attributes of dirt (what we return to after death) and God Himself (the spirit and soul we have).

Even if you don't agree, does it explain my position better to you?

In that case is God would NOT be speaking TO anything other than Himself. He would be using a literary plural like "Let's see. Shall I go to the market today".

If he is speaking TO the dirt then He is saying the dirt and Himself have an image and a likeness that is the same. If he is NOT speaking to the dirt but is instead using a literary plural then He is speaking to himself.

The problem is you said God is speaking to dirt. But He does not merely say something TO dirt for God says "Our image" and "Our likeness" which is a plural and includes someone else having that image as well. Us and Our are plural personal pronouns

Either then God is speaking to someone else, for that is the grammatically correct interpretation of what was actually said, Or God is using a literary plural or a plural of majesty.

Your argument for why it was not angels were not involved, but they WERE involved just by being there as witnesses.

Your other argument was that angels were not in the same image as God and our point was dirt does not have the same image as God. Our other point was that angels DO have a similar image as God and man. They have will. They are curious. They make decisions etc etc. They experience emotions lke joy.

BTW Did you answer my question as to who the us was when God said "Look the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil"?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

We have attributes of dirt (what we return to after death) and God Himself (the spirit and soul we have).

See your arguments confuse me at times. At first I thought here you were denying you were arguing dirt had an image we were made in, but then you say this. The grammar of Gen 1:26 is a that there is one image and one likeness. It's not that of dirt, but that of God. See God took HIS OWN Image and formed a likeness of it FROM the dirt and then breathed His Spirit into that form to make a living being like Himself. God is a living being. He has volition. He has a will. He makes choices. He has emotion. He has a creative imagination and so do we. Of all the creation God made only man is like God. We are not equal to Him in ability and knowledge and existence, but we are like Him.

Gen 11:6 And Jehovah said, Behold! The people is one and they all have one language. And this they begin to do. And now nothing which they have imagined to do will be restrained from them.
And just a side thought. Humans very often decide to pro-create. They plan families. Though we see more and more that is not happening, animals though do not do this. They are driven by hormones and the natural call to reproduce, like trees and plants. They do it not because of will but because of a hormone based response. Man, on the other hand, has the same drive, but they function on will. That is why we have laws against rape, because it's not an argument that some guy just could not help himself.

God is a moral agent and man is also a moral agent. We have stated laws and God has given us laws or morality. Animals have no such thing. Even animals have been known to engage in homosexual behavior, but they are not called sinners.

The "image" or "Likeness" really has nothing to do with dirt. It's a moral/spiritual thing. The only thing about dirt is that God chose to "reproduce" or reflect His image by means of the dirt, like an artist might do so with canvas. Dirt has no image or likeness.

Consider this thought though. What if God did have a "spirit" image...like what Isaiah saw in His vision? Im speaking theoretical not saying this is my opinion or this is bible fact. God has an image that He made for himself. It's a visible spirit image that angels can see. God might be said to have both an image and a likeness....a shape (image) as it were and a spiritual/moral likeness too. And so then God formed an earthen image of Himself out of clay...certainly not in anyway equal to God, but nevertheless an lower earthly reflection of the Spiritual. We can see a plan developing here where God wants many sons to be in His family. We see Jesus coming, dying and then being transformed into a spiritual body. We see Revelation saying He will be with us forever and we will SEE his face. And also we shall be like him for we shall see Him as he is. Remember Im still postulating here.

Do not angels, in scriptures, appear to have a similar image or shape? Dirt has no image, but if angels have a similar form as what God might have, that Isaiah saw, not an equal form but like it...and too they have a moral reflection of God's character too and are themselves spirits (look, the man has become like one of us, to know evil and good)...then do you see how easy it would be for God surrounded by the heavenly host and to include them or talk to them in this mannor and then do the creative act Himself?

Let's revisit the verse in 2 kings. you say the spirit was not an angel. Ok, but notice please that God is enthroned and is surrounded by the heavnely host (a reference to angels) and God speaks to them asking them a question and some of them give answers. See how God includes them in His plans? Even if they do not actually do the deed themselves?