I worked with a moderate Muslim. She is a very nice person. Doesn't wear a covering either, just like some Christian women wear a covering and some don't.
She must not believe the koran and is therefore not a Muslim or is applying the doctrine of taqiyya.
Does she believe Sharia should be imposed on the world? If not she does not believe the koran because the koran demands it by force if necessary.
MarcBee, since there is no God, then there is no system of ethics or morality beyond those invented by humans. And therefore none of them are "objective or transcendent".
That being the case, the only ground you have for objecting to "genocide" is your personal preferences, feelings, and will. Should your personal feelings be forced on everyone else?
And why are you so holier than thou, you speak as if YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS are the standard of what constitutes "enlightenment" while disparaging everyone else who might not accept YOU as the final arbiter of right and wrong?
As for who is a "true muslim" and who is not... wouldn't that be up to muslims to decide?
Would anyone here acknowledge a muslim pontificating on who is a true christian and who is not?
Didn't think so.
To me, if a person self identifies as muslim, there are at least a nominal muslim in my book.
Here is a good piont of reference.
WE talk about who is and who is not an apostolic here on AFF... but not ONCE have any of us drivin a car backed with TNT into a building to kill off the "fake" Apostolics.
Every single day for centruries, muslims have paid with thier lives, because some other muslim doesnt think they are the right kind of muslim.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
And thank god! Imagine that! The NT does not condone killing "for the Lord". But if it did, believers would be defending it just like they defend the baby and woman killer OT hero Joshua.
But, if you are a powerful enough mand of god, you still can possibly "sick the Holy Ghost" on a poor miscreant Christian, to have their flesh destroyed FOR THEIR OWN good, maybe not unlike how the OT enemy babies were killed "for their own good" (some here are saying.) ICor. 5:5
*yawn* you are way off topic, I have an idea, why don't you start a new thread?
WE talk about who is and who is not an apostolic here on AFF... but not ONCE have any of us driven a car backed with TNT into a building to kill off the "fake" Apostolics.
Every single day for centuries, muslims have paid with their lives, because some other muslim doesn't think they are the right kind of muslim.
She must not believe the koran and is therefore not a Muslim or is applying the doctrine of taqiyya.
Does she believe Sharia should be imposed on the world? If not she does not believe the koran because the koran demands it by force if necessary.
The women here must not be Christians because they don't wear a covering like the Mennonites. I say that because I get to decided who is Christian and who is not. Savvy?
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
WE talk about who is and who is not an apostolic here on AFF... but not ONCE have any of us drivin a car backed with TNT into a building to kill off the "fake" Apostolics.
Every single day for centruries, muslims have paid with thier lives, because some other muslim doesnt think they are the right kind of muslim.
There are Christians who kill abortion doctors. There are catholic and protestant wars in Ireland. There were the crusades. The point is, people call themselves Christians and don't act like you do. People call themselves Muslims and don't act like terrorists.
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
Thank you for bringing up these points. They are very good points of references to juxtapose Christianity and islam.
1. Christians who kill abortion doctors.
We agree that
A. it has happened.
now do we also agree that
A. Christian Ministers roundly reject this, speak open and often that it is NOT representative of Christianity to kill people we do not agree with
B. Understand that the actual number of murdering terrorists who actually kill abortion drs can be listed on a single hand over the last 10 years? that the number for all of the modern era is less than what? 100?
2. Catholic/Protestant Wars in Ireland.
That my friend is a mis-representation of the history of Ireland.
It is in fact lazy to boil that down to a religious war.
The strife that STILL exists in Ireland... and that has at times blown up into actual war and terrorism is NOT religiously motivated.
Here is the very brief history. back in the 1200s Henry II invaded Ireland. This led to his taking land from the Irish and giving it to his Norman/French followers. over the centuries, English Kings dominated the Irish and they hated them for it. in the 1500s the English Monarch split with the catholic church, but the Irish maintained close ties to the Catholic church. In the wars that followed with Ireland, the Irish sought to gain their independence from the English Crown. The Crown won the wars and took land from the Irish and gave it to their followers. These followers were protestant. then came more wars.
The Irish fought the English invaders year by year, decade by decade, century by century. They fought not because one side was Protestant and they were catholic. They fought because they had been invaded by the English who were taking their land, raping their women and starving their kids.
It just so happened that the Irish were catholic and the invaders became Protestant. the war was and is over English invasions for 800 years.
3. There were the crusades. This is a well-used argument. Crusades.... So let’s review what the crusades were.
first, the lands around Jerusalem were Christian lands. controlled by the Byzantine Emperor. Then Muhammad rose to power and over a number of years, the Arabs gained control of a lot of land... including Jerusalem. BUT that wasn’t the end of their invasions. from the 600s to the 1000s Muslims expanded into Christian held lands. They took large portions of the Byzantine lands, they took portions of Italy. They took portions of southern france. They took complete control of North Africa, extinguishing entire Christian nations…it was these Islamic invasions over a 400 year period that ended Aryanism. They took almost all of what we now call Spain.
So over that period, the Christian nations fought for their survival against an enemy with a very different culture which was vastly different from the mideval wars within the Christian nations that raged at the same time. This was seen as a cultural war by both sides. Beyond that the Muslims saw themselves as the “sword of allah” and the Christians saw themselves as “defenders of the faith”. BOTH SIDES saw the invading muslims as the agressors and the Christians as the defenders….
THEN at the same time the Vikings began their invasions from the north. Christian Europe became an armed camp every man capable of fighting was in an army marching around the countryside figting off invader after invader. The Vikings could not simply be defeated, because more came and none were controled by any one king. They were just marauders. So in the end, the church just went there and CONVERTED THEM thus ending the Viking invasions. BUT that left Christian Europe with a serious problem. They had HUGE armies full of men who had no trade other than fighting…. And most of those they had been fighting were no longer invading.
THIS was the political and social pressure that led the church to point toward turning from being defensive to being the agressors where the muslims were concerned. Enter the Crusades. 400 years of pent up frustration, cultural pressure, and massive armies that were going to undo their own societies combined to form a perfect storm that brought about the Crusades. MOST of it was just socio-economic-political realities clothed in the religious language of the age.
BUT beyond that, it can be argued that John Hunyadi who died in 1456 of the plague was The Last Crusader…Certainly by the year 1500, there was no one left alive who could legitamatly wear the Crusaders Cross. We have lived for 514 years, without a single Christian Crusader walking to and fro upon the earth…YESTERDAY AT THE VERY LEAST 10,000 FUTURE JIHADIES WERE BORN…
Finally, you suggest that the point of your points are that there are Christians that don’t act like me. That is true. The vast majority of people who call themselves Christians don’t act like me. I believe baptism in Jesus Name is required for salvation. I do not own a single piece of jewlery. In fact, I have never owned a wedding ring. ive been married 19 years. I do not ever go out in public wearing shorts. Period. I never drink. I think it is a sin. Those things alone, separate me from the vast majority of people who call themselves Christians. I don’t any issue with what others do.
BUT the numbers of people who call themselves Christian, have NEVER ONCE tried to kill someone for the cause of Christianity. The statistical reality is the number of such is so close to zero as to be statistically inseperable from zero.
TODAY more than one Muslim will attempt to and likely succeed in killing someone (liklely a fellow muslim) because they believe their victim doesn’t believe in islam in the right way. These people number in the millions. Hundreds of millions more muslims while not activly killing people, believe such is utterly reasonable.
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