Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Aquila]

Isaiah wrote,

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Why is Jesus to be also called, "The everlasting Father"???

Let Him explain it Himself...

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Isaiah wrote,

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Why is Jesus to be also called, "The everlasting Father"???

Let Him explain it Himself...

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

In John 14:7-10,
Is Jesus talking about Himself, or is He talking about His words and His works?

Is the existence of the Son a Work of the Father?

I'm not trying to be silly or difficult for the sake of being so.

I better focus here at work.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

In John 14:7-10,
Is Jesus talking about Himself, or is He talking about His words and His works?

Is the existence of the Son a Work of the Father?

I'm not trying to be silly or difficult for the sake of being so.

I better focus here at work.

I don't think you're being silly. All are good questions. In my opinion, the state of "oneness" can only exist between two distinct things. While I believe the oneness between the Father and the Son to be inseparable... hypothetically should they be separated, Jesus (the Son of God) would only be a man. Seeing that all virtue, holiness, and divinity resides in Christ as it relates to His oneness with the Father... Jesus would also find Himself void of all divine attributes and subject to the very same flesh and blood weaknesses as any other man.

[Acts 2:38 man]

God BECAME man in Christ Jesus. Colossians 1 & 2.
Hebrews 1:1-2 says in Greek text "God has spoken unto us in these last days in his son-ness" In other words, in the form of a son.
When Nicodemus was talking to Jesus he was looking at God (John 3:13 KJV).

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Acts 2:38 man

God BECAME man in Christ Jesus. Colossians 1 & 2.
Hebrews 1:1-2 says in Greek text "God has spoken unto us in these last days in his son-ness" In other words, in the form of a son.
When Nicodemus was talking to Jesus he was looking at God (John 3:13 KJV).

But was he looking at the Father?

[Light]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I put it simply. I believe that Jesus was a man... who was also God. A man who was one with God. Therefore, Jesus is both man and God.

Then cometh the end when Jesus delivers us the church to God even the father

God said he put all things under Jesus EXCEPT himself.

I Cor 15: 24 thru 28

[Michael The Disciple]

It is truly sad to see the state of the "Apostolic" people today. The belief that Jesus is the Father is the VERY REASON they exist as a people.

The posts I have read in this thread sounds almost more "Unitarian" than Apostolic Oneness. People are saying Jesus is God MERELY because God was/is in him.

I thank God even tho I have never been accepted among Oneness Pentecostals that I came to this at a time (1980) when the Oneness message was still being taught by them and I as a young Trinitarian believer saw the great and glorious majesty of Jesus Christ!

I took a poll here a few years back and even then most on the forum do not understand that Jesus is the Father. I will try to set forth the beauty and power of this wonderful truth.

There is FAR MORE to this message than what most are seeing.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

It is truly sad to see the state of the "Apostolic" people today. The belief that Jesus is the Father is the VERY REASON they exist as a people.

The posts I have read in this thread sounds almost more "Unitarian" than Apostolic Oneness. People are saying Jesus is God MERELY because God was/is in him.

I thank God even tho I have never been accepted among Oneness Pentecostals that I came to this at a time (1980) when the Oneness message was still being taught by them and I as a young Trinitarian believer saw the great and glorious majesty of Jesus Christ!

I took a poll here a few years back and even then most on the forum do not understand that Jesus is the Father. I will try to set forth the beauty and power of this wonderful truth.

There is FAR MORE to this message than what most are seeing.

Michael,
Jesus Christ is not The Father.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I am not sure my original question was ever answered.

A person CANNOT be Oneness if they do not believe Jesus it the Father, any more than a person can be a Trinitarian and claim that anything other than there is only one God eternally existent in three co-equal, co-powerful person, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Words have meanings. We can't just go around calling ourselves whatever we want. If we don't fit into a particular category, then we must find a different label, or at least modify it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jesus pre existed as God the Father.

Paul gave us this.

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Paul said in the OT the Rock was Christ. If we can discover the identity of the ROCK we will know who Christ is.

Dueteronomy 32:6

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Do you see what I see? The one who is THE ROCK in the OT was The LORD, YHWH. He also was their God, ELOHIM. And in verse 6 he was THEIR FATHER!

So when Paul said that Rock was Christ he meant Christ pre existed as God the Father in the OT. This should become second nature to every Apostolic.