MB, you just came off a little harsh. At least that's how it felt.
No one has "maligned" everyone that uses that term. Ignorant? Malicious? What conversation are you referring to? Conspiracy? Again, you are showing glimpses of why you were a tad defensive in your initial post. No one is saying these things.
I reread my initial post and I saw nothing harsh or defensive in it. That kind of misunderstanding is what can happen when you're talking in text, I guess.
I'm fine with *geeking out* and discussing the finer points of any topic. I personally enjoy those kinds of conversations. I just like for things to stay objective, and about the topic rather than people, unless there's some specific personality crucial to the topic.
After my first post, however, I did notice some posts that used terms like "ignorant", "false practices" and "deceive."
Those words are truly inflammatory and harsh, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite
...The point is, Proverbs is not about evangelism. The scripture can never mean what it never meant. It's awful to see "soul winning" seminars (a funny subject) that use this as their slogan. It's quite ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smith
This practice has been used repeatedly to deceive, mislead, and fall into areas of false practices. There are entire Christian denominations built on isolated verses that have been completely taken out of context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite
...
As for other things you've said...
I cannot personally convert anyone. No one calls Jesus LORD except by the Spirit. I can share His Story with them, but the coming to Jesus part, believing, being converted is all His job. That means, it's on His shoulders. I just have to live my life in a Gospel way, which comes natural. We've made "soul winning" an event too often. He didn't put "soul winning" on our shoulders, he put "making disciples" on our shoulders.
If you have no problem with "soul winning" -- great. Good for you. I'm just saying... please leave Proverbs 11 out of it.
I mostly don't see a huge deal with using the term. However, the crouching theologies that accompany this phrases and campaigns can be harmful to believers. Anxiety and obligation of performance, comparing how many fish you caught on that trip, etc... it's the Spirit works. We plant and water... God gives increase. We live a Gospel life, sharing in life together, listen for critical conversations, opportune moments, etc...
I was relieved to learn that people coming to God was not something I could control. So what I'm declaring is GOOD NEWS to the Body, not "gnat straining."
I agree with you about the "crouching theologies." There are sometimes damaging implications that need to be unraveled, and I'm good with that. If we live an authentic Gospel life and trust God to bring about the desired end results, there's much less personal pressure and a lot more overall productivity.
Also, while I realize that the Proverbs scripture is not referring to NT evangelism, the principle still applies to the topic of evangelism. He that wins souls (friends) is wise. If we want to convert someone, we must be wise. Show me a man who converts a lot of believers, and I'll show you a wise man who knows how to win friends. Step 1 to evangelizing is to build relationships with people, e.g., friendships.
Personally, I would recommend that Christians read How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie and Becoming a Person of Influence by John Maxwell. The former covers charisma, and the latter covers mentoring, both which are necessary traits to the evangelistic Christian. On a sidenote, I apply the Maxwell book to parenting all the time.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Last edited by MissBrattified; 11-15-2010 at 04:58 PM.
I would also point out that the Church of Christ doesnt have music because there aint none mentioned in the NT.
its a point of fellowship.
Actually, that's not totally true. While they do point out there's no mention of music in the New Testament, they call attention to that only in conjunction with verses in the NT that command us to sing. They combine that with the absence of musical instruments, to suggest the NT intends for us to sing a cappella (that means singing with my music, if you need help with that).
But...you'll be glad to know that the Church of Christ teaches very strongly that the remission of sins can only happen through the act of baptism.
I reread my initial post and I saw nothing harsh or defensive in it. That kind of misunderstanding is what can happen when you're talking in text, I guess.
I'm fine with *geeking out* and discussing the finer points of any topic. I personally enjoy those kinds of conversations. I just like for things to stay objective, and about the topic rather than people, unless there's some specific personality crucial to the topic.
After my first post, however, I did notice some posts that used terms like "ignorant", "false practices" and "deceive."
Those words are truly inflammatory and harsh, IMO.
I agree with you about the "crouching theologies." There are sometimes damaging implications that need to be unraveled, and I'm good with that. If we live an authentic Gospel life and trust God to bring about the desired end results, there's much less personal pressure and a lot more overall productivity.
Also, while I realize that the Proverbs scripture is not referring to NT evangelism, the principle still applies to the topic of evangelism. He that wins souls (friends) is wise. If we want to convert someone, we must be wise. Show me a man who converts a lot of believers, and I'll show you a wise man who knows how to win friends. Step 1 to evangelizing is to build relationships with people, e.g., friendships.
Personally, I would recommend that Christians read How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie and Becoming a Person of Influence by John Maxwell. The former covers charisma, and the latter covers mentoring, both which are necessary traits to the evangelistic Christian. On a sidenote, I apply the Maxwell book to parenting all the time.
Quote:
Regardless of what phrase, label or colloquialism you use to describe converting people to Christianity, we are all instructed to share the Gospel and to bring people to Christ. Being deliberately obtuse about commonly used phrases is pointless, IMO, unless their use is actually anti-scriptural. (Which in this case it is not.)
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; James 5:20
Accusing someone of being "deliberately obtuse" and saying what they are talking about if "pointless" is definitely hostile to me. But that's all subjective. I'm just telling you the way I took it. If you don't see it that way... whatever. Can't control that.
When you quote me or Mr. Smith, please be clear. What is it that I said was ignorant? In which way did I mean ignorant? Pejoratively or as a fact about the matter at hand?
Whatever... here we go into the "he said, she said." All the defensive flapping for something that's "pointless" just doesn't make sense to me.
As far as your application to validate the use of Proverbs with "soul winning" evangelism.... very interesting, indeed. While your point about people needing to be friends is true, Proverbs 11 does not have evangelism in view, nor when it's used in many Penny/Charismatic circles, is used with your creative view.
Actually, that's not totally true. While they do point out there's no mention of music in the New Testament, they call attention to that only in conjunction with verses in the NT that command us to sing. They combine that with the absence of musical instruments, to suggest the NT intends for us to sing a cappella (that means singing with my music, if you need help with that).
But...you'll be glad to know that the Church of Christ teaches very strongly that the remission of sins can only happen through the act of baptism.
Fortunately, we don't read the OT and NT as two separate books with different stories, and we understand we share a story. So we can rest in the fact that the Psalms have much benefit for us today (especially when exegeted correctly)
What's your point, Ferd? You're actually upset because we are talking about passages of scripture and searching for correct interpretation? Seriously, what's your beef?
Come to think of it, I think I've heard an entire sermons on 2 Tim 4:19.
Linear Mode
