I'm Goin' UPC tonight

[Thinking]

I believe we all just want to be saved. We want to make it to Heaven. God help us.

[commonsense]

Maybe this is coming full circle. My parents ( total 3 steppers, saved in 1931 and 1935) believed the message and were strong UPCers. But I wasn't taught the intolerance.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Honestly, very close to 100% of UPCers I have had heart to heart with think some non op will be in heaven. Many or most, however feel an obligation to propagate what they see as the full unvarnished truth publicly. I do not defend what I see as duplicity, yet I do understand the motives and intent is to share the gospel as they themselves received it without compromise.

My hope and prayer is not that we would change the message that we received, but that we can declare it with humility, acknowledging that all of us can be subject to faulty interpretation and less than perfect doctrine. Nothing wrong with acknowledging that other believers in Christ have a different view on things like Spirit Baptism or Justification. Let the information be free and informative. There is no need to disparage other Christians.

Thankfully I, as a UPC church goer, see progress in this area. Much, much better than ten or twenty years ago. I see more maturity, more tolerance, and less unwarranted judgement. Thank God we are a work in progress!

Hoovie, I'm completely with you on the humility factor about diverse opinions -- when it comes to non-essentials. To me, however, the Gospel is an absolute essential.

Different views on Spirit Baptism exist. For example, many believe it's evidenced only by tongues, others allow for other spiritual phenomenon. However, that's not an issue within itself, and both are views that don't require division. But when Spirit Baptism becomes the Gospel message, we have problems.

What would Paul say about "disparaging other 'Christians' that add to the Gospel????"

No one has commented on that. What of false teachers? Was this only unique in the First Century and related only specifically to Judaizers?

[Sabby]

I personally don't see Spirit baptism being preached in Paul's gospel.
The false teachers he ALWAYS seemed to butt heads with were Judaisers that wanted to add "works" to the message that Jesus Christ was indeed the Messiah. They just weren't happy with the message of Hebrews that Jesus was the "Son", the "better" high priest and the "better" sacrifice. They viewed their Jewish "lineage" as superior to gentiles. I would go so far as to say that those guys were the pre-cursors to today's Zionist Christian movement today. There are Christian preachers today that actually believe that as a RACE that the jews will be restored and that temple worship will be restored, but if

"...I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor". Galatians 2:18.

Paul is specifically addressing the false teaching of the Judaisers in the province of Galatia. IMO he wasn't talking about Acts 2:38, but rather the very fact of WHO Jesus was and is. That was the singular issue Paul faced in opposition to his preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel Paul was preaching was the "Hope of Israel"(Acts 28"20) the reality of the person of Jesus Christ.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sabby

I personally don't see Spirit baptism being preached in Paul's gospel.
The false teachers he ALWAYS seemed to butt heads with were Judaisers that wanted to add "works" to the message that Jesus Christ was indeed the Messiah. They just weren't happy with the message of Hebrews that Jesus was the "Son", the "better" high priest and the "better" sacrifice. They viewed their Jewish "lineage" as superior to gentiles. I would go so far as to say that those guys were the pre-cursors to today's Zionist Christian movement today. There are Christian preachers today that actually believe that as a RACE that the jews will be restored and that temple worship will be restored, but if

"...I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor". Galatians 2:18.

Paul is specifically addressing the false teaching of the Judaisers in the province of Galatia. IMO he wasn't talking about Acts 2:38, but rather the very fact of WHO Jesus was and is. That was the singular issue Paul faced in opposition to his preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel Paul was preaching was the "Hope of Israel"(Acts 28"20) the reality of the person of Jesus Christ.

There's only one gospel and Paul preached the same gospel that Peter and the rest of the apostles did.

[Sabby]

MY point exactly!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Sabby

I personally don't see Spirit baptism being preached in Paul's gospel.
The false teachers he ALWAYS seemed to butt heads with were Judaisers that wanted to add "works" to the message that Jesus Christ was indeed the Messiah. They just weren't happy with the message of Hebrews that Jesus was the "Son", the "better" high priest and the "better" sacrifice. They viewed their Jewish "lineage" as superior to gentiles. I would go so far as to say that those guys were the pre-cursors to today's Zionist Christian movement today. There are Christian preachers today that actually believe that as a RACE that the jews will be restored and that temple worship will be restored, but if

"...I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor". Galatians 2:18.

Paul is specifically addressing the false teaching of the Judaisers in the province of Galatia. IMO he wasn't talking about Acts 2:38, but rather the very fact of WHO Jesus was and is. That was the singular issue Paul faced in opposition to his preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel Paul was preaching was the "Hope of Israel"(Acts 28"20) the reality of the person of Jesus Christ.

Paul writes extensively about the work of the Spirit in bringing us to maturity -- not to mention that his writings on the charismata or the most exhaustive we have in scripture.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

There's only one gospel and Paul preached the same gospel that Peter and the rest of the apostles did.

What is the Gospel mizpeh?

[sandie]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Honestly, very close to 100% of UPCers I have had heart to heart with think some non op will be in heaven. Many or most, however feel an obligation to propagate what they see as the full unvarnished truth publicly. I do not defend what I see as duplicity, yet I do understand the motives and intent is to share the gospel as they themselves received it without compromise.

My hope and prayer is not that we would change the message that we received, but that we can declare it with humility, acknowledging that all of us can be subject to faulty interpretation and less than perfect doctrine. Nothing wrong with acknowledging that other believers in Christ have a different view on things like Spirit Baptism or Justification. Let the information be free and informative. There is no need to disparage other Christians.

Thankfully I, as a UPC church goer, see progress in this area. Much, much better than ten or twenty years ago. I see more maturity, more tolerance, and less unwarranted judgement. Thank God we are a work in progress!

I had a UPC Pastor for many years who summed it up for me in this manner:
It only takes a minute to get baptized.
I never question anyones sincerity, salvation, walk with God, or what He is doing in their lives and I'm a "three stepper", which I just recently found out since joing this forum.
It's God who does the saving...
I haven't been in a UPC church in years, I often wonder why God hasn't led me to one that isn't hard, hard, hard, since joining this forum I think I'm figuring it out.

[Jeffrey]

The whole topic is not even about "when are you saved" but about the entire nature of salvation and grace. Such a huge distinction we are talking.