WPF back to UPCI

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Jay

Bro. Epley, I understand some of that, but if you do not mind, could you elaborate a bit on that for me. I am not quite sure what all has happened that caused the fall of the PAW. I am always seeking to learn more. They are a part of my history, due to the fact that I used to belong to a group that came out of them back in the 20s, and it would be educational.

There's a free for all in the organization, so much so that we're hearing that there are certain Bishops that no longer even teach that tongues is the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (something so basic to Pentecostal Doctrine).

I'm not an ultra-con when it comes to standards, but I do believe in a separation and I do believe in outward holiness. My biggest beef with the organization isn't the standards, it's the lack doctrinal integrity. There's a lot of compromise on just about anything and everything. I honestly don't know how long P.A.W. will actually remain oneness. If the more conservative pastors and Bishops (like my own pastor) leave, then it'll only be a year or two before they'll openly allow F, S, HG preachers to join, preach, and teach. Yes there are rumors that they already are, but not the org isn't open about it and denies it. I love P.A.W., I got saved in a P.A.W. church. Something has got to change quick though, or it's going to split, real soon.

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by CC1

PraiseHymn,

Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps a lot of the people you say have left the outward dress code have done so because they believe it is extra biblical rather than because they "have a problem with obedience"?

I've been in and out of P.A.W. for almost a decade now. I can assure you, that the Bible is the least of some P.A.W. member's concerns. The organization is consumed with pride, young preachers that will do anything for money, and honestly straight up rebellion, for the sake of rebellion. There is a serious desire amongst some of the major leaders to go the route of the COGIC and other organizations and turn our conventions into some sort of Megafest II, by bringing in big name non-apostolic preachers that draw large crowds to receive large offerings. They're very open about that. Preachers like Bis. Noel Jones and even our presiding bishop, Bis. Charles Ellis already bring them to his church for the sake of drawing crowds. Turns out Apostolic preachers don't draw in million dollar offerings. They have this desire to be on the Word Network and hang out with the TBN crowd. That's the direction their dragging us in. It has nothing... absolutely nothing to do with the Bible.

On the flip side, being a young active individual in my District council, I see a lot of young preachers (aged 16 to 25) following their leaders and copy-catting the same big time megapastors trying to get engagements and become the next youtube-sensation preacher (yes there are youtube sensation preachers these days). There's a prideful nasty culture that is developing in P.A.W. churches and the African American megachurch scene as a whole. The organization as a whole is falling simply because nobody is instilling a love of Bible truth and a love for people in those who have been called to ministry. They could care less about the Apostolic Doctrine, Holiness, and the people's true needs, they just want a preaching engagement because the megachurch culture has turned preachers into celebrities.

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Jay

I would like to do that, but I just went to Kansas City and took four days off of work. I will not be able to do anything like that again for a number of months. I will be praying for you and the whole PAW.

Despite some of the craziness you may or may not see/hear, it's a great time always. It will be in New Orleans next year. Don't have exact dates but it's always late July thru early August. The Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith (my second home organization and a split off group from PAW) will be having theirs the week before in New Orleans as well and they'll be holding joint services. There's been talk of the two organizations reuniting... doubt that will probably never happen though unless PAW get's it's act together. God-willing I'll be there for most of both conventions.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Jay

Bro. Epley, I understand some of that, but if you do not mind, could you elaborate a bit on that for me. I am not quite sure what all has happened that caused the fall of the PAW. I am always seeking to learn more. They are a part of my history, due to the fact that I used to belong to a group that came out of them back in the 20s, and it would be educational.

After the compromise on the standards. The false doctrine of unconditional eternal security made inroads among some of the leadership. Then they began to use Trinitarians in their meetings. Go to their webpage it contains NOTHING about baptism in Jesus Name nor the Oneness of God the foundation of the organization. It's leadership has led it into apostasy.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by PraiseHymn

What happened in the PAW is no different that what happened (or is currently happening) to most conservative Holiness churches. Holiness is no longer preached. Instead, everyone is following after the almighty dollar instead of God Almighty.

* Inward holiness is not preached anymore.

* Outward standards arent preached anymore.

* Trinitarians crept in and started to preach on the local and national level which caused an outcry amongst the churches that still hold to the truth.

* Typical scandals involving money, sex, and drugs (not saying that I know for sure of someone who used drugs, I just assume on that one) all of this caused people to be hurt and leave the organization and vow never to go back to strict holiness.

* Apostolic Doctrine is certainly NOT being preached in the churches. Its rare to hear the word Apostolic in a PAW church now UNLESS the word "Apostolic" is in the church name. A lot of PAW churches took Pentecostal or Apostolic out of there church name and renamed them Family Worship Center or "Christian Church".

* PAW does not want to be exclusive anymore when it comes to the Name of Jesus but inclusive of all who call themselves Christian.

* The title "Jesus Only" is at the top of the PAW National Seal that can be found on banners and official paper. Well, the liberals wanted to snatch that out and leave it blank and the conservatives had a fit.

* Jesus Name Baptism still takes place in all PAW churches however some now do it sporadicaly while others (i.e. Noel Jones Church) wont say it aloud over the pulpit but they wait until you get to the altar and personaly ask you if you want to be baptised in Jesus Name (I witness this for myself at a service there).

COOLJC (Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ) has gone this route too which is the second largest black Oneness Pentecostal organization. The problem in my community (speaking of my race, my people, african americans), we have a problem with obediance and we love kepping up with the Jones's (i.e. if the mega trinitarian churches that come on tv speak in tongues and shout and dont have a dress code, why should we....Im gonna put my pants on and dare the Bishop to say something to me...I wont ever give a dime to this church again, you watch, I'll fix him). Dont tell us how to live for God (we got that already), dont tell us to be faithful to church (I will come when I want to come and if you dont speak to me I'll have a fit and you might not see me for a month) and please dont restrict me in what I want to wear (I'll put my pants on, earrings and paint my face and sit in the choir stand cause I felt like it and if you preach standards, I'll say your not preaching to me, thats only for ministers wives to follow). This is how I grew up alllllllll my life and I had to get outta churches that would stand for nothing and fall for anything. (sorry, not putting my race down, but since we are talking about a black religious organization, I thought I'd share from the inside the true problem). I just realised I might have just described a lot of churches that are black, white, latino and all other races......boy are we living in the last days.

Bottom line, as in any orgnization, PAW has become very political.

While my current church is now WPF (Formerly UPCI), when I travel I tend to go to PAW churches to get the "soulful" worship service I miss sometimes at my church. I have seen everything under the sun in most of the churches I visited and even the ones that keep the standard, when I come back and visit you can see the outward change.

Bottom line, when holiness stops being preached from the pulpit, it gives the membership the "go ahead" to do what they want. Now let me run outta here before all the liberals start to stone me......hey Im just the messanger.....

Sad but true.

[Steve Epley]

The PAW is gone I would hope those who still believe the message would leave and form their own group that believes the doctrine.

[Jay]

If things run ture to form, only a few will leave, and the rest will fight to save it, but they will end up losing their churches in the fight. That is the way that it seems to go in every denom/org that has ever existed in Christianity.

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

After the compromise on the standards. The false doctrine of unconditional eternal security made inroads among some of the leadership. Then they began to use Trinitarians in their meetings. Go to their webpage it contains NOTHING about baptism in Jesus Name nor the Oneness of God the foundation of the organization. It's leadership has led it into apostasy.

Just listened to a cd of Bro. Bean yesterday, oh my what a man of God! He said that almost all false doctrine he has encountered somehow leads to eternal security. The devil will do anything to keep people from really repenting and giving their lives to God.

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The PAW is gone I would hope those who still believe the message would leave and form their own group that believes the doctrine.

I can 100% assure you Bishop CE Johnson is on his way out, and a few others. I can't speak for Sherman Merritt, and some of the other conservative Bishops, but I know Bishop CJ has had his foot out the door for years, and this year our congregation is preparing mentally for the very real possibility that we're leaving. The org is hanging on to dear life. The fact is the majority of P.A.W.'s hardest and most passionate workers come out of the conservative districts (where people are actually living holy) if they leave the organization crumbles, the libs don't realize it but the mega-church members that just come to church for entertainment really aren't interested in the well being of what we know as the "mother church".

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

After the compromise on the standards. The false doctrine of unconditional eternal security made inroads among some of the leadership. Then they began to use Trinitarians in their meetings. Go to their webpage it contains NOTHING about baptism in Jesus Name nor the Oneness of God the foundation of the organization. It's leadership has led it into apostasy.

This is true. This added to the Bishops who no longer believe in Acts 2:38 being the plan of salvation and those who no longer believe that tongues is the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Never thought I'd see the day when Apostolic churches were leading new converts in the sinners prayer and then telling them they're saved...