Why don't some speak in tongues?

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

I for sure do not condemn them.

I never really considered my self a one stepper or a three stepper before I came onto this forum. Maybe naive to the terminology.

These types of arguments have been going on throughout the centuries as to the precise moment of salvation. John Calvin and Joseph Arminius had similar arguments as well as Calvinism OSAS/eternal security and Arminianism ability to apostate.

I use the illustration that it is a natural process for all three to occur. Faith is like the insemination between an embryo and the semen. They both have the potential for life. The potential life in Christ, mankind, waiting for the Word to come to bring life. Life cannot come without the hearing of the word. Faith cometh by hearing.

At this point the human heart is penetrated with the life giving Word. Life begins. For us that can only see the exterior and not the heart, we do not know if anything has really taken place. That is why Jesus said shew forth the fruit of repentance for our sakes. Luke 3.8 Acts 26.20 God can see if true faith and repentance have taken place. That is why prior to the birth of the church in Acts He could say to the thief on the cross "Today you shall be with me in paradise". He can see what would happen if that individual lived the natural progression that would transpire.

The thief cometh but for to steal, kill, destroy. Satan wants to destroy life at whatever phase it might occur. He would try to cause an abortion at this point. The parable of the sower and the seed. Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith fail him not. Not that he won't be sifted as wheat.

As the embryo of faith grows the question of "What must I do to be saved" is asked. Jesus stated you must be born again. This is of water and of the Spirit. I am not going to argue if water is the natural birth, many if not most believe that it is baptism that is represented here and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Jesus, John, & Peter all state that we must repent. Faith usually occurs before repentance. Repentance is in response to faith. Does salvation occur at faith or repentance? Romans 10.10 For with the heart one believeth UNTO righteousness and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation.

We will see a genuine change of heart, lifestyle, and direction if repentance has taken place. God see heart we see the fruit of repentance. We know that after faith and repentance, baptism is the natural progression of life Just as when that embryo grows the birth must take place. There is no other Name... in which/whereby we must be saved. You must be Born Again! And be baptized. He That believeth AND is baptized. We cannot preach anything other than what the Word of God Plainly speaks. The believing/faith part must precede baptism or it invalidates baptism.

You can pull a person off the street into the church service and baptize them shouting real loud and with so much authority "In the Name Of Jeus Christ" and is that person saved? Is the baptism of a baby efficacious? So it is not just speaking the Name over somebody that saves. That is not the secret formula. That is why Jesus gave the authority to remit or retain sins John 20.23. We cannot just baptize without seeing the faith and repentance already at work. The seed and embryo meet and bring growth birth MUST take place.

Repentance means death to sin and baptism means burial of the old man. You who were dead in sins he hath quickened Eph 2.1 The spiritual man died in the garden of Eden. Separated from God by sin. Old covenant blood of an animal covered sin but did not remit sin. This is why when they died they still lived either in a state of death in hell or in the bosom of Abraham in hell. The place of the departed souls or the grave. How were old or new covenant saints quickened, by grace through faith. It was not until the blood of Jesus was applied that sin was paid for. Now all who die go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord.

Repentance is symbolic of death, Jesus died in our place at calvary we transfer our sins to him. Baptism is symbolic of burial, Jesus was buried but the conquest of death still had not occurred. It is not until the resurrection that new life is imparted. When we come out of the baptismal waters after having the Name of Jesus invoked over us we are raised into newness of Life. this could not happened if the previous process had not taken place.

This is why we don't get baptised to cleanse the filth of the flesh. Baptism doth save us because faith and repentance have taken place. The answer of a good conscience towards God. How is this done? By the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3.21

At birth we are still not completely alive yet for we are still attached to the mother by the umbilical cord. We need to cut and sever our ties to the old life. That is our old nature as a child of wrath. We must now be led by the spiritual man that is made alive to God once again. Dead to the flesh, Alive to walk in the spirit. Our spirit communicating with Gods Spirit. Once the Umbilical cord is cut then the child is able to breathe and live free from the old life it was attached to.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We also need to be born of the Spirit and take our spiritual breath after cutting our ties to the world. Every time it was evidenced at the conception of the church it was always accompanied by tongues. When this occurs and the reasons why I will leave it up to God.

He gave us two examples of differing occasions. Acts 8 way after baptism. We also have Acts 10 before Baptism as a sign that God received the Gentiles faith and repentance just like he did the Jews.

Paul emphatically asked Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? I want to bring into view the statement "Since you believed?" They were believers but I just know what the Bible teaches that we need to receive the Holy Ghost subsequent to faith. Were they not saved until they received the Holy Ghost? I doubt it. It is just that we need the Power of Gods Spirit empowering our spirit. Many times we try to please God in the flesh. We have had the mental ascent but have not fully entered into a spiritual relationship with God. This can occur because of a lack of understanding or a lack of leadership emphasizing the need for a spiritual relationship.

I don't know if this is a one step or three step. All I know is that there is a natural progression of faith that must occur. If someone dies before baptism I will leave that up to God. The biblical plan of salvation is laid out and that is what I must preach. The how and when will be made evident as faith will be demonstrated by works. The works do not save us they only demonstrate faith as in the old covenant they demonstrated faith by doing what God asked of them. The acts did not save them the faith did.

Enough said for now

God Bless
Pastor Daniel T. Salaz

Pastor "D",

I think that makes you a 1 stepper or maybe a "modified" 1 stepper!

You and I believe very closely. I believe that a person must walk on to "perfection" and that salvation, per se, is more of a process than a point. However, after having said that, I also believe that a person has a right to a simple answer to a simple question, "When am I right with God?" I know we're not the Judge, but God did not give us a maybe so salvation or something to keep us guessing whether or not today I am a Christian or if I thought or did something to "revoke" my salvation multiple times a day.

Our salvation is either secure or it is fragile. I do NOT believe in the Calvinistic view of eternal security, but I do believe that our salvation is far mor secure than many proclaim and that we can also lose it as well.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I do not think there is a solid answer to this. It is like asking why some do not get healed. It could be many things. All I know is that the gift is for ALL that believe, and that tongues will accompany it when one receives it. The only thing I can do for the chronic seeker is encourage them to learn to praise God with all their hearts and receive what he has for them. Believing doesn't make it yours automatically. You must receive the gift that God extends to you.

There we go. More of the, "if you just believe and receive it God will give it to you". This sounds a lot like some of the Charismatics that say if you will only have enough faith then God will heal you.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Pastor "D",

I think that makes you a 1 stepper or maybe a "modified" 1 stepper!

You and I believe very closely. I believe that a person must walk on to "perfection" and that salvation, per se, is more of a process than a point. However, after having said that, I also believe that a person has a right to a simple answer to a simple question, "When am I right with God?" I know we're not the Judge, but God did not give us a maybe so salvation or something to keep us guessing whether or not today I am a Christian or if I thought or did something to "revoke" my salvation multiple times a day.

Our salvation is either secure or it is fragile. I do NOT believe in the Calvinistic view of eternal security, but I do believe that our salvation is far mor secure than many proclaim and that we can also lose it as well.

Oh yes I also believe in eternal security. As long as I believe and keep exercising my faith by walking towards heaven. I am secure and don't have to fear heaven or hell each day or even moment. My works never save me they only demonstrate my faith. We all keep on failing either in commission or omission and sin. All this is continuously covered under the blood. The only way to shipwreck our faith is an openly rebellious state of unrepentant and continuous lifestyle of sin. No longer walking towards heaven but have turned around after having received the faith.

Other wise we would have eternal insecurity.

God Bless
Pastor Daniel T Salaz

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

Oh yes I also believe in eternal security. As long as I believe and keep exercising my faith by walking towards heaven. I am secure and don't have to fear heaven or hell each day or even moment. My works never save me they only demonstrate my faith. We all keep on failing either in commission or omission and sin. All this is continuously covered under the blood. The only way to shipwreck our faith is an openly rebellious state of unrepentant and continuous lifestyle of sin. No longer walking towards heaven but have turned around after having received the faith.

Other wise we would have eternal insecurity.

God Bless
Pastor Daniel T Salaz

This is the message we preach in the UPC from time to time

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

Oh yes I also believe in eternal security. As long as I believe and keep exercising my faith by walking towards heaven. I am secure and don't have to fear heaven or hell each day or even moment. My works never save me they only demonstrate my faith. We all keep on failing either in commission or omission and sin. All this is continuously covered under the blood. The only way to shipwreck our faith is an openly rebellious state of unrepentant and continuous lifestyle of sin. No longer walking towards heaven but have turned around after having received the faith.

Other wise we would have eternal insecurity.

God Bless
Pastor Daniel T Salaz

There are far too many people who preach this message and honestly, I don't even think they know it. I did for years and thought I was doing God a service by keeping His sheep on their faces never quite sure if they were a "Brother/Sister" or just a Mr. or Ms!

And there are some, unfortunately, who believe that status changes daily, weekly or even hourly, the way you hear them preach.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

There we go. More of the, "if you just believe and receive it God will give it to you". This sounds a lot like some of the Charismatics that say if you will only have enough faith then God will heal you.

I stand by my statement. the Apostle Paul does to.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


There are MANY reasons why someone may not have received the Holy Ghost. Many times it is just that they have not yielded, claimed, and possessed The Promise. It would do me little good to have the winning lottery ticket if I do not make any attempt to go and redeem it. Many have a promise of The Promise, but never receive it. They sit down and wait for God to pour it out on them. This is NOT faith. FAITH accepts it as done. FAITH calls those things that be not as though they were. FAITH possesses and see's the promises of God as a done deal prior to seeing them in the natural, simply because God said so.


Some really need to get a revelation of what Faith really is, and how it works.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I stand by my statement. the Apostle Paul does to.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


There are MANY reasons why someone may not have received the Holy Ghost. Many times it is just that they have not yielded, claimed, and possessed The Promise. It would do me little good to have the winning lottery ticket if I do not make any attempt to go and redeem it. Many have a promise of The Promise, but never receive it. They sit down and wait for God to pour it out on them. This is NOT faith. FAITH accepts it as done. FAITH calls those things that be not as though they were. FAITH possesses and see's the promises of God as a done deal prior to seeing them in the natural, simply because God said so.


Some really need to get a revelation of what Faith really is, and how it works.

I agree with you here, St.Matt.

I would also like to add, from experience and listening to the experiences of others - after repenting God began to deal with them about things in their lives they needed to get rid of in order to totally yield everything up to God - when this was accomplished they were all filled.

That happened to me. It wasn't a sin I was holding onto, but something in the area that would continue to harbor pride in my life. When I let that go, I was filled.

One evangelist was relaying (this story before he received his call to preach) on how he prayed and prayed during every service. So much so that people got tired of praying with him. One night he lay under a pew. He had poured out everything and then God was able to say, "You have this in your home. You need to get rid of it and you will be filled." He did and was filled.

We can come to God, in faith, repent and be baptized. Just because the Holy Ghost is a gift doesn't mean He gives it to you right on the spot. Repentance and baptism are the beginning.

We know we are sinners in need of repentance, but there are some things in our lives that we don't view as sin. That hinders us from receiving His Spirit, in some cases.

With His Spirit we continue to grow in perfection (maturity).

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

So, it appears to me, that the most important thing is NOT that their lives have changed due to a sincere surrender to the Lord, it is the completion of a 3 step paradigm. Their relationship with the Lord is of lesser importance than their completion of the 3 step plan.

MOW, this is a strawman argument. Part of the "3 step plan" is repentance which is a change of mind evidenced by a changed life...one who repents has turned from sin and turned to God. They no longer want to do the things they once did. So how can you say, 3 steppers see relationship of less importance than completion of the 3 step plan if one of the three steps IS repentance?

So who says a relationship with the Lord is of lesser importance than completion of "the 3 step plan"? Being born again and having a relationship with the Lord go hand in hand. Seriously, to say "Their relationship with the Lord is of lesser importance than their completion of the 3 step plan." is outright misrepresentation of what I believe.

Maybe this is what you did when you were in the UPC, teach the new birth to the detriment of bypassing repentance, and therefore you project it onto others. I don't know.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

I for sure do not condemn them.

I never really considered my self a one stepper or a three stepper before I came onto this forum. Maybe naive to the terminology.

These types of arguments have been going on throughout the centuries as to the precise moment of salvation. John Calvin and Joseph Arminius had similar arguments as well as Calvinism OSAS/eternal security and Arminianism ability to apostate.

I use the illustration that it is a natural process for all three to occur. Faith is like the insemination between an embryo and the semen. They both have the potential for life. The potential life in Christ, mankind, waiting for the Word to come to bring life. Life cannot come without the hearing of the word. Faith cometh by hearing.

At this point the human heart is penetrated with the life giving Word. Life begins. For us that can only see the exterior and not the heart, we do not know if anything has really taken place. That is why Jesus said shew forth the fruit of repentance for our sakes. Luke 3.8 Acts 26.20 God can see if true faith and repentance have taken place. That is why prior to the birth of the church in Acts He could say to the thief on the cross "Today you shall be with me in paradise". He can see what would happen if that individual lived the natural progression that would transpire.

The thief cometh but for to steal, kill, destroy. Satan wants to destroy life at whatever phase it might occur. He would try to cause an abortion at this point. The parable of the sower and the seed. Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith fail him not. Not that he won't be sifted as wheat.

As the embryo of faith grows the question of "What must I do to be saved" is asked. Jesus stated you must be born again. This is of water and of the Spirit. I am not going to argue if water is the natural birth, many if not most believe that it is baptism that is represented here and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Jesus, John, & Peter all state that we must repent. Faith usually occurs before repentance. Repentance is in response to faith. Does salvation occur at faith or repentance? Romans 10.10 For with the heart one believeth UNTO righteousness and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation.

We will see a genuine change of heart, lifestyle, and direction if repentance has taken place. God see heart we see the fruit of repentance. We know that after faith and repentance, baptism is the natural progression of life Just as when that embryo grows the birth must take place. There is no other Name... in which/whereby we must be saved. You must be Born Again! And be baptized. He That believeth AND is baptized. We cannot preach anything other than what the Word of God Plainly speaks. The believing/faith part must precede baptism or it invalidates baptism.

You can pull a person off the street into the church service and baptize them shouting real loud and with so much authority "In the Name Of Jeus Christ" and is that person saved? Is the baptism of a baby efficacious? So it is not just speaking the Name over somebody that saves. That is not the secret formula. That is why Jesus gave the authority to remit or retain sins John 20.23. We cannot just baptize without seeing the faith and repentance already at work. The seed and embryo meet and bring growth birth MUST take place.

Repentance means death to sin and baptism means burial of the old man. You who were dead in sins he hath quickened Eph 2.1 The spiritual man died in the garden of Eden. Separated from God by sin. Old covenant blood of an animal covered sin but did not remit sin. This is why when they died they still lived either in a state of death in hell or in the bosom of Abraham in hell. The place of the departed souls or the grave. How were old or new covenant saints quickened, by grace through faith. It was not until the blood of Jesus was applied that sin was paid for. Now all who die go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord.

Repentance is symbolic of death, Jesus died in our place at calvary we transfer our sins to him. Baptism is symbolic of burial, Jesus was buried but the conquest of death still had not occurred. It is not until the resurrection that new life is imparted. When we come out of the baptismal waters after having the Name of Jesus invoked over us we are raised into newness of Life. this could not happened if the previous process had not taken place.

This is why we don't get baptised to cleanse the filth of the flesh. Baptism doth save us because faith and repentance have taken place. The answer of a good conscience towards God. How is this done? By the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3.21

At birth we are still not completely alive yet for we are still attached to the mother by the umbilical cord. We need to cut and sever our ties to the old life. That is our old nature as a child of wrath. We must now be led by the spiritual man that is made alive to God once again. Dead to the flesh, Alive to walk in the spirit. Our spirit communicating with Gods Spirit. Once the Umbilical cord is cut then the child is able to breathe and live free from the old life it was attached to.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We also need to be born of the Spirit and take our spiritual breath after cutting our ties to the world. Every time it was evidenced at the conception of the church it was always accompanied by tongues. When this occurs and the reasons why I will leave it up to God.

He gave us two examples of differing occasions. Acts 8 way after baptism. We also have Acts 10 before Baptism as a sign that God received the Gentiles faith and repentance just like he did the Jews.

Paul emphatically asked Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? I want to bring into view the statement "Since you believed?" They were believers but I just know what the Bible teaches that we need to receive the Holy Ghost subsequent to faith. Were they not saved until they received the Holy Ghost? I doubt it. It is just that we need the Power of Gods Spirit empowering our spirit. Many times we try to please God in the flesh. We have had the mental ascent but have not fully entered into a spiritual relationship with God. This can occur because of a lack of understanding or a lack of leadership emphasizing the need for a spiritual relationship.

I don't know if this is a one step or three step. All I know is that there is a natural progression of faith that must occur. If someone dies before baptism I will leave that up to God. The biblical plan of salvation is laid out and that is what I must preach. The how and when will be made evident as faith will be demonstrated by works. The works do not save us they only demonstrate faith as in the old covenant they demonstrated faith by doing what God asked of them. The acts did not save them the faith did.

Enough said for now

God Bless
Pastor Daniel T. Salaz

This post was a pleasure to read. Thanks for taking the time to type it out.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.


Could this a reason? Some folks allow their heart to condemn them, when Jesus would not condemn, and thus they do not receive when they ask.

Very interesting. I think you might be right that some folks don't receive the Holy Ghost because they condemn themselves and they don't receive His forgiveness.