This Shocked Me - JTS to allow gays

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Originally Posted by Coonskinner

If I am not a classic dispensationalist, how would you describe my views?

What "camp" do I fit in?

Perhaps a upc-ized version of dispensationalsim.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Perhaps a upc-ized version of dispensationalsim.

That's a better description. Didn't dispensationalism arrive on the scene about the same time the Mormons gained some ground?

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Originally Posted by Berkeley

That's a better description. Didn't dispensationalism arrive on the scene about the same time the Mormons gained some ground?

Come to think of it, you're right.

[mfblume]

Romans teaches Israel will not be saved in a millennium outside the church age.

The entire concept of the book of Romans' notes on Israel all point to inclusion into the church.

ROMANS 9

Rom 9:1-8 KJV I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Notice that Paul's answer to a hypothetical question as to whether or not God's promises are of effect is based upon the then-present situation of Israel in unbelief. Paul speaks about how Israel, for the most part, was lost in his day since they rejected the new covenant. And then Paul makes the remark: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect." In other words, Paul knew people might conclude that God's promises were ineffective, due to the state of Israel abiding in unbelief. But Paul says that is not the case.

But in light of such a situation where IT LOOKS like God's promises were ineffective, IF DISPENSATIONALISTS were correct, Paul would have said this...

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For God shall remove the church in the rapture, and there will be an additional age in this earth after the church age. And it is in that future millennium that God will fulfill His promises to Israel."

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE READ. That WOULD HAVE BEEN what we read if dispensationalism were true. But look carefully at what it actually says.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Did you read that???? Paul says that the promises of God are still true! But when you read about ISRAEL receiving these promises, Paul said, NOT ALL ISRAEL IS ISRAEL. In other words, what people commonly think of as Israel is NOT WHAT GOD THINKS OF WHEN HE THINKS OF ISRAEL. He said nothing about a millennium to fulfill those promises. Instead, he points to his day and simply says not all Israel is Israel. That implies the promises were fulfilled IN HIS DAY.

Then Paul explains:

" Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. "

Just because people are physically descended from Abraham, it does not mean they are the children of Abraham to whom the promises would be made. The Old Testament said, "IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED."

Think about this. Abraham had two sons, whom he physically fathered. But we know that ISAAC was the ONLY SON thath God recognized, because he was the child of promise, while Ishmael was child of the flesh. So Paul takes that and says that natural Israel in his day, though they physically descended from Isaac and not Ishmael , was considered ISHMAEL becuase of their spiritual state.

This is remarkable!

And Paul said that the only children of Abraham God considers, in his promises to Israel, are the children of promise!

Paul continued:

Rom 9:9-13 KJV For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

In both Rachel and Sarah's cases, there were TWO CHILDREN born and ONLY ONE was considered the one through whom the inheritance would occur. In both cases there was a child of the flesh that was not reckoned. Ishmael and Esau.

So, the conclusion is that -- YES -- the promises are fulfilled! But they're not fulfilled for the FLESHLY ISRAEL, but the "CHILDREN OF PROMISE" Israel. Not all of Israel is Israel. That implies SOME ARE. In other words, amongst natural Israel, some were Christians, and are considered the TRUE HEIR OF PROMISE. But not all naturally born in Israel are considered. So we cannot look at ALL ISRAEL to see whether or not the promises took effect.

But what about the gentiles in the church?

Paul picks up on this in Gal 4 and uses the EXACT SAME PICTURE of Isaac and Ishmael, and speaks of unebeliving Jews as ISHMAEL compared to Christians considered ISAAC. And in Gal 4's case, the believing GENTILES are involved, because the Galatians were gentiles in the church.

Gal 4:21-31 KJV Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? (22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. (23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. (24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. (28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

So that is Romans 9. Now, onto Romans 10.

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Romans 10.

In Romans 10, we read of a certain WORD that was said to not be far from people., It was as close as being in their mouths and in their hearts.

Rom 10:8 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

This is written in the context that is speaking about Israel once again.

Rom 10:8 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

They lived by the righteousness that Moses preached, which was righteousness by works, and was impossible to attain.

Rom 10:3-9 KJV For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above (7) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) (8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; (9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So, the word of righteousness preached by the church is the only TRUE means to righteousness. And Paul quoted from Deuteronomy 30 in order to explain this. Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30 and said it was referring to a specific WORD which is actually the WORD OF FAITH PAUL PREACHED. Paul's interpretation of Deut 30's command to Israel was that it was the WORD OF FAITH PREACHED BY THE CHURCH.

So let us read Deut 30 and find how Moses spoke of this WORD in order to deal with Israel in the book of Romans. I will highlight the portion Paul interpreted as the WORD OF FAITH.

Deu 30:1-14 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. (4) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: (5) And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. (6) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (7) And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. (8) And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. (9) And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: (10) If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. (11) For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. (12) It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (13) Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Notice that the WORD Paul interpreted as the word of faith preached in the New Testament church is "THIS COMMANDMENT". And when you read from the start of the chapter, it is the same commandment we read about here:

(2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Notice it involves PROMISES TO ISRAEL. And it specifically regards them BEING GATHERED after they have been scattered. And God said He would not GATHER THEM UNTIL THEY OBEY THE WORD OF COMMAND.

Deu 30:1-3 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Was Israel gathered by God in 1948? NO!!!!!! According to this chapter, God WOULD ONLY GATHER THEM when they obey the WORD OF FAITH PREACHED BY PAUL.

So what was the gathering of 1948 to Israel? Despite all appearances, we have to stand on the Word of God. And the Word of God clearly states they must obey the word of faith BEFORE God gathers them. And they had not done that in 1948. So what occurred in 1948 was a gathering of people to the middle east, but was not what God was talking about in Deut 30. According to Paul's words in Romans 10, the gathering IS ONLY FULFILLED SPIRITUALLY. Otherwise, Paul was wrong in Romans 10! Paul interpreted the word they must obey in order for God to gather them as being the WORD OF FAITH PAUL PREACHED.

Now we know Abraham searched for a city, and we claim Heb 12:22 proves that CITY is the Church!.

With that in mind, read this:

Deu 30:20 KJV That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Heb 11:16 KJV But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews interprets the COUNTRY they sought as a HEAVENLY ONE, and not earthly. All the earthly ideas of prophecy all have names for cities and countries that are mentioned in the New Testament as BEING SPIRITUAL ENTITIES NOW.

Heb 12:22-23 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

In other words, all the earthly Zion and Jerusalem and LAND was considered fulfilled in the SPIRITUAL Zion, Jerusalem and LAND. The apostles SAID NOTHING ELSE ABOUT ANY OTHER WAY OF FULFILLMENT. And they directly referred to these prophecies and applied them to the church. So what are we going to believe? Something the apostles never said about a millennium when they are fulfilled, or what THEY DID SAY about these prophecies applied to the church?

[SDG]

I knew you'd like this topic ... dispensationalism ... that is.

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Romans 11.

With all in mind that we see in Romans chapters 9 and 10, we then come to Romans 11.

Paul said that a remnant was saved from Israel. And that there also would be the consideration for the rest of Israel. He said all Israel would be saved. When we read the following verses, people have missed the little word "SO".

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

"AND SO" means, "in the preceding manner described." All Israel would be saved IN THE PRECEDING MANNER DESCRIBED. And that means we have to go back before 11:26 and see what manner God said he would use to save Israel. Initially we see that reference is made in verse 25 to blindness lifted from Israel as a reason for the reference to their salvation.

And we will get to that. We already noted in Romans 9 that "not all Israel is Israel", and the promises of God are not ineffective, but fulfilled in consideration of whom God considers Israel to be. And Paul said Israel in God's mind was only those people amongst the nation who were believers. Gal 4 includes believing Gentiles in that number. Romans 10 said the WORD OF FAITH PAUL PREACHED was the word commanded in Deut 30 as the means to see Israel regathered to God when scattered.

In Romans, NOT ONE WORD WAS SAID ABOUT a millennium fulfilling the promises. The CHURCH's word of faith alone is mentioned. And Paul even stated in Romans 11 that HE PREACHED IN ORDER TO CAUSE JEALOUSY AMONGST THE JEWS to incite them to get saved. He did not say he was to forget about reaching Israel since they were blinded by God, but rather sought to stir them up to get saved IN HIS DAY through jealousy, by preaching to Gentiles.

Rom 11:13-14 KJV For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Then he writes:

Rom 11:15 KJV For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul called the receiving of Israel, being life from the dead, as the effects of his ministry to gentiles being successful in saving SOME OF THEM! He did not say "life from the dead" will be what Israel's salvation in the millennium will be. He said "life form the dead" would be the results of Israelites being saved BY HIS PREACHING TO GENTILES IN HIS DAY!

He says nothing about a millennium!

Rom 11:23 KJV And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Paul also said that if Israel departs from unbelief, they shall be graffed into the olive tree again. What was the nature of their unbelief? They rejected the WORD OF FAITH PAUL AND OTHERS PREACHED! So the only way they can depart from unbelief is to believe by accepting and believing the word of faith Paul preached.

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Paul then said a mystery existed which was that Israel shall all be saved. Blindness had come on Israel until the fullness of gentiles comes in. So, all Israel will be saved. "AND SO" also refers to the moment when BLINDNESS is removed.

Now, we must talk about this blindness. One verse cannot contradict another. We all know why God blinded Israel.

Rom 11:7-10 KJV What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. (9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: (10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Israel rejected Christ. So God blinded them. This is also found in Romans 1.

Rom 1:18-28 KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

This is techincally speaking about the heathen gentile nations, and their idolatry and sexual perversion that were simply forbidden in Israel. But the principle is the same for Israel. God revealed truth to people, and they refused to glorify God with that truth, and rejected the truth. So He revealed wrath to them and gave them over to reprobate minds. That is the same thing that Romans 11 said about blindness coming on Israel.

Now, the question we must ask ourselves is whether or not God does that to DESCENDANTS of people who committed the sin that brought on blindness. We know God blinded those people who rejected Christ. But is the blindness still there? I say NO.

Eze 18:1-4 KJV The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The soul that sins shall die, and not the child of the soul who sins. The soul that sins shall be punished, and not the descendant of the soul who sins.

The proverb means that if the parent ate sour grapes, the children would be affected by it and feel their teeth set on edge. In other words, the sins of the father would come upon the children. Just as a father eats grapes and his children experiences their teeth set on edge, if the father commits a sin the children would suffer the penalty. God said this was the case before Ezekiel 16 was written. But it would NO MORE BE SAID IN ISRAEL. THINGS CHANGED. That means, that the idea that the Jews' unbelief in Christ COULD NOT AFFECT THEIR DESCENDANTS, otherwise God lied in Ezekiel 18. And Ezekiel 18 specifically referred to ISRAEL, which is the nation in question in Romans 11!

So, getting back to Romans 11, the blindness that would be lifted after the fullness of the gentiles come in must have been fulfilled after that first generation who rejected Christ was over.

But the simplest answer for Romans 11 is that PAUL SAID NOTHING ABOUT A MILLENNIUM AFTER THE CHURCH AGE, IN WHICH ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED AND COME BACK TO GOD. If he believed in it, he would have stated it in answer to the apparent ineffectiveness of God's promises to Israel in Romans 9. But he did not. He simply said, "Not all Israel is Israel." He did not even use a future tense term in responding to that, which he would have done had the millennium been the fulfillment of the promises to Israel. Paul used the term "IS". In Paul's day, to which the question applied in regards to Israel's promises, Paul said, "Not all Israel IS Israel." He implied the concern for prophetic fulfillment was HIS DAY, not a future millennium.

When Paul said ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, he said NOTHING about it occurring OUTSIDE THE CHURCH in a future millennium after the church is gone. He actually said quite the opposite in Romans 10.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I knew you'd like this topic ... dispensationalism ... that is.

heh heh. Yes. "Dispensationalism": <--Mine enemy. Actually, I would more say I like the topic of THE CHURCH BEING THE LAST THING IN GOD'S MIND FOR PLANET EARTH.

[mfblume]

If Israel is blinded today, it is on an individual basis, not national, in the same way any other individual of another nation is blinded>

2Co 4:4 KJV In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

These are my thoughts on the issue, and request people consider them sincerely. And I also do not think these are matters that determine fellowship.

[berkeley]

Brother Blume,

great thoghts!! I have nothing to add. lol