3.5 years or 1260 years

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Romans 11. I know you have addressed that before, but for me, the plain reading of the passage tells me clearly Paul is speaking that God is not done with the Israel that it is according to the flesh, because the gift is irrevocable. Paul says that Israel has a small minority that is responding to the Gospel, while the rest has been hardened. As result, the Gentiles are coming in. When the time is come, the nation of Israel according to the flesh will have a greater reception of the Gospel. Obviously, it is a generalization, the same way Paul himself also generalizes in the passage, and not every.single.living.descendant.will.be.saved, but simply that there will be a greater revival among them, powerful enough to influence the Israel as a nation.

The question I am asking has to do with the people identified today as "Jews". Romans 11 speaks about Israel. Of course God is not "done with Israel", they are the recipients of the new covenant and the ones to whom the adoption and the promises et al pertain. But what does have to do with the people called Jews?

My point is the Bible addresses the salvation of Israel as being achieved by the Gospel going forth. Paul points out the fact that most of JUDEAN Israel has rejected the Gospel is no indication of a lack of fulfillment of the promise:

Romans 11:2-7 KJV
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, [3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. [4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. [7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

There is an "election", a chosen remnant, the rest (those who rejected the Gospel) have been blinded. As a result, the Gospel has gone forth to the "nations" (the lost sheep of the House of Israel, as well as everybody else):

Romans 11:11-15 KJV
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. [12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? [13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: [14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. [15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

It should be noticed here that Paul does not say there WILL certainly be a reversal of the conditions, but simply points out that IF their rejection of the Gospel brought it and Life to the nations, then their acceptance of the Gospel would be even more beneficial and glorious. Please notice this is essentially an "if then" statement, not necessarily a prophecy. And, we have to keep in mind what the words are meaning here: Israel is in reference to the Judean (Judahite) nation that was still operating under the Old covenant, and the "nations" are the Greek/Heathen descendants of the divorced and scattered House of Israel (Hosea 1, Romans 9) which lost title to the label "Israel". The modern people called Jews are simply not in view for several reasons:

1. They simply are not Israelites. They are a mixed group of Turkish "Khazars" and Arabic, Edomite, and assorted other nationalities.

2. They are not operating under the Old Covenant, as that Covenant was in fact done away with, so nobody on earth is or could be operating under the terms of the Sinaitic Covenant.

I know there is a debate about whether "And so" in 11:26 means "and in this way" or more temporal like "and at the end". Those that believe the replacement theology want to say "and in this way" is the right translation so that "Israel" is really the minority that responded plus the Gentiles. But the context of the passage is about the destiny of the hardened Israel which constitutes the majority, and which Paul has generalized already to "all Israel". Therefore, the best translation here is "at the end," concluding the mystery question what would happen to the Israel as a whole that has been hardened.

I believe that passage in Romans 11 is clear as water that God is not done with Israel as a nation according to the flesh.

The meaning of "and so" is literally "in this manner". The fullness of the nations is a term describing Israelites, and especially the tribe of Ephraim. Remember, Israel was to increase in number to become not just one nation, but a multitude of nations, a company of nations, a fullness of nations:

Genesis 17:4-6 KJV
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. [5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. [6] And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Genesis 35:10-11 KJV
And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. [11] And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Genesis 48:19 KJV
And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Yes, all Israel will be saved. Both house of Judah, and Israel, which were prophesied to become a company, a multitude (fullness) of nations:

Ezekiel 37:16-22 KJV
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: [17] And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. [18] And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? [19] Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. [20] And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: [22] And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

The problem is, people think all these prophecies about Israel and Israelites have something to do with the modern "Jews", which they do not. This is where most of the errors come from in people's eschatologies. It's not "Jews vs Gentiles = Israelites vs non-Israelites". It's Judah and Israel are a multitude of nations destined to serve Christ, and modern Jews are a sociological group based upon Pharisaic religious identity, which makes them sons of hell and the synagogue of satan, regardless of their ethnicity:

Revelation 3:9 KJV
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Matthew 23:15 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

So yes, God is not done with Israel "as a nation according to the flesh". But that has naught to do with the people today called "Jews". They simply aren't that "Israel according to the flesh".

[Esaias]

One of the biggest errors in eschatology is Replacement Theology. But not the one everyone thinks. Rather, it is that a religious group has "replaced" actual Israel, taking on its name and claiming its identity. That Replacement Theology, the REAL "replacement theology", is the one that asserts the modern people called Jews are in fact the descendants of Jacob and heirs of the promises.

The Bible identifies Israel prophetically and historically. The modern "Jews" simply do not match the descriptions.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

One of the biggest errors in eschatology is Replacement Theology. But not the one everyone thinks. Rather, it is that a religious group has "replaced" actual Israel, taking on its name and claiming its identity. That Replacement Theology, the REAL "replacement theology", is the one that asserts the modern people called Jews are in fact the descendants of Jacob and heirs of the promises.

The Bible identifies Israel prophetically and historically. The modern "Jews" simply do not match the descriptions.

Pow! Pow! Pow! You knocked it clear out of the park and it’s still going!!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Romans 11. I know you have addressed that before, but for me, the plain reading of the passage tells me clearly Paul is speaking that God is not done with the Israel that it is according to the flesh, because the gift is irrevocable. Paul says that Israel has a small minority that is responding to the Gospel, while the rest has been hardened. As result, the Gentiles are coming in. When the time is come, the nation of Israel according to the flesh will have a greater reception of the Gospel. Obviously, it is a generalization, the same way Paul himself also generalizes in the passage, and not every.single.living.descendant.will.be.saved, but simply that there will be a greater revival among them, powerful enough to influence the Israel as a nation.

I know there is a debate about whether "And so" in 11:26 means "and in this way" or more temporal like "and at the end". Those that believe the replacement theology want to say "and in this way" is the right translation so that "Israel" is really the minority that responded plus the Gentiles. But the context of the passage is about the destiny of the hardened Israel which constitutes the majority, and which Paul has generalized already to "all Israel". Therefore, the best translation here is "at the end," concluding the mystery question what would happen to the Israel as a whole that has been hardened.

I believe that passage in Romans 11 is clear as water that God is not done with Israel as a nation according to the flesh.

Ezra 2:58-62 is the evidence that no one today can prove their lineage. You no longer have Israel according to the “flesh” genealogical lineage tribal Israel.
Replacement theology is a slur against the Body of Christ. Formulated by Zionist Christians. Yet, what is being replaced is Christ for a Zionist agenda. The “seed” of Abraham is “modern Israel” instead of Christ Galatians 3:16. We the Body of Christ, the True Israel of God, the Bride, the Heavenly New Jerusalem are the Children of Abraham. The entire doctrine of an irrevocable covenant is throughly explained by the Apostle in Romans 11. Because of unbelief they lost their rightful place in the domestic olive tree. Only if they trust in Christ, can they regain access. They were the husbandmen of the vineyard. Yet they killed all the rent collectors until they finally killed the Owner’s Son. Then the owner killed them.

That’s clear as Crystal

[Evang.Benincasa]

Brother coksiw can you please explain what is Israel according to the flesh?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother coksiw can you please explain what is Israel according to the flesh?

[Romans 11:28-29 NKJV] 28 Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.

Biologically descendants of Jacob.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

[Romans 11:28-29 NKJV] 28 Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.

Biologically descendants of Jacob.

How is that accomplished exactly?

Biologically are you saying DNA?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How is that accomplished exactly?

Biologically are you saying DNA?

Yes and no. People can be some mixed up that there could be very little DNA left of a particular ancestor. I am white, brown hair, hazel eyes, yet I have 1% Mali in my DNA. I am biologically related to some ancient black ancestor by hundreds of years, but there is little to no DNA left in me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Yes and no. People can be some mixed up that there could be very little DNA left of a particular ancestor. I am white, brown hair, hazel eyes, yet I have 1% Mali in my DNA. I am biologically related to some ancient black ancestor by hundreds of years, but there is little to no DNA left in me.

So why did you say biologically? What did you mean by Israel biological descendants?
You do understand the Bible doesn’t work that way?

[Evang.Benincasa]

In Ezra 2:59-62

We are shown genealogy. We are explicitly shown “the children of the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name: These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.” Now if we were dealing with being biologically correct, these offspring of the daughter of David’s favorite gentile would be legitimate as Levites. Yet, the Bible declares these “biological” Levites as corrupt. Genealogy meant everything to the ancient Israeli and Judean. We are showed Jesus’ genealogy to show He is of the root of Jesse. Therefore we who are students of the Bible must follow this rule when defining the a Judean according to the flesh. As you pointed out you are a mix of many different lineages and races. Now, if your ancestor was a Judean of the tribe of Judah, and this ancestor was born over 2,000 years ago. His or her descendent would have gone through many pairs of parents. Too many to count. By the time we come to 2024, there original DNA blueprint would be gone.

The problem is real, and a Jew according to the flesh is missing from your eschatology. Still I would like you to prove who is a Jew according to the flesh now?