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  #71  
Old 10-11-2007, 01:58 PM
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Ok, so you have no answer...it's a very simplistic situation...it could occur in some form anywhere in the world...yet, we pontificate here ad nauseum about the specific, no compromise requirements for salvation UNTIL...given an actual example to consider, then we leave it up to God...

God will keep them alive until they do the right thing???!!!! Really??

This is disingenuous at best...in light of the possibilities, we can't quite bring ourselves to state a position.

The example does add to the discussion...you may not like its preface, but it demands the issue be addressed directly...why the retinence to state the obvious...that dear soul is at rest in the arms of the Lord...period.
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  #72  
Old 10-11-2007, 02:00 PM
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Ferd:

The fact is Truth lives in the possibilities...think about it.
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  #73  
Old 10-11-2007, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Romans 6 teaches baptism is necessary and is also symbolic.
PRECISELY!
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  #74  
Old 10-11-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Don't mistake my silence on a term as a mere proposal ....

most theologians agree is the the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is evident in the theology of JW's, Mormons and some Oneness Pentecostals.

Simply type "Baptismal Regeneration" in Google ... see the results.
I know what baptismal regenerationists propose, and it is NOT what Oneness Pentecostals propose. Must I quote the Catechism of the RCC? I already noted, that even your source, Spurgeon, indicated that it is regeneration without faith by water. You really need to represent OP's correctly.

Truthseeker's quotes commented on how many people who believe that baptism is part of salvation readily agree with certain commentators' words about Acts 2:38, while the writer himself disagreed. Same goes with the "most theologians" to which you refer, from our perspective. What saith the scriptures?
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  #75  
Old 10-11-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBuddy View Post
Ferd:

The fact is Truth lives in the possibilities...think about it.
RevBuddy, the Truth lives irrespective of possibility or situation.

What we are called to do is proclaim that truth, NOT the exceptions.

I have enough faith to trust God. I dont have to provide an "out" option for those looking for the exception.
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  #76  
Old 10-11-2007, 05:08 PM
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The whole debate IMO is a result of human intellect and emotion trying to grapple with an infinite Gods decisions about the final destiny of any man, woman, boy, or girl. However, the Word of God is clear on this issue! It matters not what my emotions are nor how deep my love for family, friends, and associates is. I wish there were many different ways into the kingdom, I would to God that everyone could be saved, even if they had fallen to the lowest pit of human depravity at times. And, while it doesn't fit our human understanding Gods ways are not ours and his Word is absolute.

The OT was given to us as a school master to bring us to Christ, and as such contains many types and shadows. Many on this forum would have probably advised the people of Noah's day that getting on the ark was not necessary. How could God be so cut and dry after all "we can't judge whether you'll drown or not just because you don't get in the ark." And while we search for alternative ways for people to be saved, many more are going to hell.
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  #77  
Old 10-14-2007, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bishoph View Post
The whole debate IMO is a result of human intellect and emotion trying to grapple with an infinite Gods decisions about the final destiny of any man, woman, boy, or girl. However, the Word of God is clear on this issue! It matters not what my emotions are nor how deep my love for family, friends, and associates is. I wish there were many different ways into the kingdom, I would to God that everyone could be saved, even if they had fallen to the lowest pit of human depravity at times. And, while it doesn't fit our human understanding Gods ways are not ours and his Word is absolute.

The OT was given to us as a school master to bring us to Christ, and as such contains many types and shadows. Many on this forum would have probably advised the people of Noah's day that getting on the ark was not necessary. How could God be so cut and dry after all "we can't judge whether you'll drown or not just because you don't get in the ark." And while we search for alternative ways for people to be saved, many more are going to hell.
Isaiah 54:7-8: "For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you. In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you, says the Lord, your Redeemer."

Jeremiah 3:12: "I will not be angry forever."

Psalm 30:5: "For His anger is but for a moment, and His favor is for a lifetime."

Psalm 103:9-10: "He will not always chide, nor will He keep His anger forever, He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities."

"O death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your sing?" Hosea 13.14

Why did God create mankind? Temporal and national judgment does not equal endless destruction or endless torture.
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  #78  
Old 10-14-2007, 10:07 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Truthseeker,

Do you have a link to that article?
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  #79  
Old 10-15-2007, 02:04 AM
slave4him
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Question: "Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"

Answer:
As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
It is all ways interesting to see people put a spin on this by saying faith alone or faith plus works. The correct answer is faith plus obidence to Gods word.
We don't get baptized in Jesus name because of doing some sort of work to earn salvation. We are baptized in obiedence to his word and that obiedence is what allows us to be saved. As far as using works as an argument. Believing in something is a work. So if I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord then I have commited a work already before I ever get baptized.

Acts 2
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


It seems to me that it would be a terrible sin that Peter commited if after these people asked the disciples what to do about their sins and Peter told them to commit these works if that is not what it takes to be saved. If Peter was wrong here then how can we believe any of the epistles of any of the disciples.
It has allways took obiedient works of faith to be saved in every dispensation. The apple, The ark, The law etc.
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  #80  
Old 10-15-2007, 02:29 AM
slave4him
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak View Post
Isaiah 54:7-8: "For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you. In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you, says the Lord, your Redeemer."

Jeremiah 3:12: "I will not be angry forever."
Why did you not post that entire verse.
12Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
God not keeping his anger was dependent on them returning to keeping his commandments.

Quote:
Psalm 103:9-10: "He will not always chide, nor will He keep His anger forever, He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities."
You need to read a little further in this chapter.
Psalm 103
17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

18To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.
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