Be Perfect Be Pure

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

But you do sin. And so do I. So does Michael and Esaias. Are you not "perfect" because that is so? I would say, on the contrary, that you still are, because you obviously are seeking to grow in him and are becoming more mature each day.

Costeon, that really doesn't make any sense. They who work righteousness are just like Jesus who is righteous. They who sin are of the devil, and are not God's offspring 1 John 3:7-9. Calvinism holds to a belief system which teaches you that you are under sins control until you are translated to heaven at some future time. Unable to have any control through the Holy Ghost while you are still alive. Now, you may say that you are less sinning then you were at the beginning of your journey. Or as you put it, "rarely" sinning. But we don't find that in the Bible, or the New Testament. The Old Testament Judeans and Israelites certainly believed that you can be free from sin, but they just didn't believe God had to be part of that equation. They felt that they can do as the pagans. Place God in His temple, do the list of dos and don'ts and wait for the sacrifice to be consumed. Cain offered what he was supposed to offer, he dotted the i s and crossed the t s , and sat back and waited for the thumbs up. All without any love, respect, honor, or devote worship. therefore his sacrifice was rejected because of his attitude. 1 John 3 sews it up, and there is no way around what it is trying to tell us. You were translated into the kingdom of His dear son, then allow yourself to be filled with the Holy Ghost. No more walking in the flesh, start walking in the Spirit.
Baptism for the remission of sins is meaningless if we get out of the water to speak in tongues while we are committing adultery.

Originally Posted by Costeon

I think the main issue in this thread is that we're not all operating on the same definition of what perfection is. You say, "Perfection is maturity." I would agree--but I don't think I clearly understand what exactly you mean by "maturity." Maturity, to me, does not mean sinless perfection at every moment for all of life. If I am wrong here, no one is mature.

No one is mature? Again, you gauge this by your own standard of experiences. People you may personally, know? You yourself being your greatest example of a Christian struggling in sin? Therefore you feel it is impossible to be mature in a way where you don't commit the same crimes as you did as a young convert Ephesians 4:28.

Originally Posted by Costeon

Michael in his videos seems to assert that perfection means sinless perfection--along with the terrible idea that Jesus does not love us if we fail in any way. I take it from how Esaias has responded that that is his view as well (not the Jesus doesn't love you part; he has not said that). No one has given an actual example of someone who never sins . . . ever. According to Scripture, only Jesus is entirely sinless.

The Apostle Paul gave not only his credentials but that he was without fault concerning the Law. We also read in Luke that Zacharias and Elizabeth was blameless before God Luke 1:6. In Ezekiel 14:14 we are given a list of three men of God who would of cut the mustard with God. Noah, Daniel and Job. Was that post Pentecost Acts 2:38? New Testament Calvinist band-aid on a bullet wound? No, they were Old Testament law keepers, who by faith looked for the one who would come later, who is Jesus Christ. We all live by faith, and are renewed day by day 2 Corinthians 4:16. The outer man, carnal, childish, beast nature perishes (if we let it) and the inner man grows to an adult. Outer man perishes, and the inner man matures Colossians 3:10. Only you can stop this process. Jesus is able to keep us, but Jesus is a gentleman, He will never force us to follow Him.

Originally Posted by Costeon

I definitely agree that we are to look to the Bible for our example of what a spiritually mature believer is like.

But instead of looking around you for the example of mature perfection, look at Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Paul told the Corinthians to follow him as he followed Christ. Christ was his pastor, his only legitimate example, or maturity in perfection. Putting on the mind of Christ Philippians 2:5-8 is the helmet of salvation Ephesians 6:17, and walking in the light as He is in the light 1 John 1:7 brings us to the ultimate goal of growing up in Him Ephesians 4:15.

Originally Posted by Costeon

I had mentioned that the goal is sinless perfection. So, to the passages you have listed, I would say amen. We are to seek to be free from sin, and thank God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can live an overcoming life, that is, a life characterized by obedience to God.

Costeon, now you are singing the song of truth, but in the next quote you flip flop?

Originally Posted by Costeon

To me that does not, however, mean that from now until Jesus comes I will never fail in thought, word, or deed. I will never get to a place in this life where I never have to pray the prayer Jesus told us to pray, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." I trust that as I grow in maturity I will not have to pray it as often. :-)

You are focusing on the wrong thing. The focus isn't on you, your own ability to walk on water, but the ability that He is calling you to walk out there and go to Him. Jesus promises you to complete the good work in you, that is our focus, not that what if, or maybe I don't, or someday over the rainbow I trip and fall into sin. Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH. The best time to prove to ourselves that we can do this through Christ is in our darkest hour. When no one can see us, when we are put to the test, and we are able to be at peace to hold onto the victory in Jesus.

Originally Posted by Costeon

It seems to me we all are also operating on a different understanding of sin. Of course I don't think there's a good chance a Spirit-filled believer may commit adultery or murder on any given day, or commit any other "big sin." It seems at least some in this thread are focusing on the biggies; I am mostly thinking about sins of thought and attitude, things we are much more susceptible to--and anyone who has read this forum for a long enough time will surely have seen what appear to be sins of attitude.

But don't you think that may be a problem? That it is that sort of immaturity within us to self justify, by convincing ourselves that there are levels in sin?
Sin is displeasing God, it is being instructed in how to get the job done, and failing to WANT to complete the task at hand. Want and need are two very different things, and we may need to do it but we don't want to do it. Immature, and mature, getting out of bed to face the world, no matter how bad it is for us, mature, staying under the bed when we need to face the world, immature. Having to schlep the first fruit of your harvest out to the altar, because it is expected of you because its your religious duty. Hence the sacrifice is rejected because its immaturity on your part. Your brother on the other hand can't wait to bring the first fruit of his flock, and slides into the altar with total unbridled devotion. His sacrifice is ecstatically received.

Originally Posted by Costeon

Paul's discussion in Gal 5 about the sins of the flesh is instructive: 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

It seems many people focus on things like the sexual immorality, idolatry, drunkenness, and the orgies--the biggies--but overlook the enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions and "things like these." This is why I have asked people in this thread do they always love their neighbor as themselves.

So, maybe it would be helpful if we just as succinctly as possible state what we think a mature or perfect Christian is like.

I would say a mature Christian is one who thanks God every day that he has been justified and is counted righteous in God's sight, not for any of his works, lest there be any boasting, but because of his faith in Christ and having the righteousness of Christ imputed to his account, and then out of gratefulness for this precious gift, he seeks to actually become what God has already declared him to be: righteous. He lives a life characterized by obedience and fulfilling the will of God, but for various reasons, will at times fail in thought, word, or deed, and when he does, he prays the prayer Jesus taught us to pray for forgiveness so that he abides in Christ's love, that is, he does not allow anything to simply remain in his life that would disrupt his loving, intimate relationship with Christ.

Calvinism is a bit confusing, because it double speaks itself. It talks about intimate relationships with God but still messing up from time to time. Double mindedness is called spiritual instability, but Calvinism teaches just that, ecclesiastically bi polar Christianity. We are actually taught to be like Cain. Just go out there and do the Christian dos and don'ts, talk Christianisms act Christianisms, and God will accept the sacrifice. Not to be like Abel who was totally in love with God, and going beyond the shopping list.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Costeon, that really doesn't make any sense. They who work righteousness are just like Jesus who is righteous. They who sin are of the devil, and are not God's offspring 1 John 3:7-9. Calvinism holds to a belief system which teaches you that you are under sins control until you are translated to heaven at some future time. Unable to have any control through the Holy Ghost while you are still alive. Now, you may say that you are less sinning then you were at the beginning of your journey. Or as you put it, "rarely" sinning. But we don't find that in the Bible, or the New Testament. The Old Testament Judeans and Israelites certainly believed that you can be free from sin, but they just didn't believe God had to be part of that equation. They felt that they can do as the pagans. Place God in His temple, do the list of dos and don'ts and wait for the sacrifice to be consumed. Cain offered what he was supposed to offer, he dotted the i s and crossed the t s , and sat back and waited for the thumbs up. All without any love, respect, honor, or devote worship. therefore his sacrifice was rejected because of his attitude. 1 John 3 sews it up, and there is no way around what it is trying to tell us. You were translated into the kingdom of His dear son, then allow yourself to be filled with the Holy Ghost. No more walking in the flesh, start walking in the Spirit.
Baptism for the remission of sins is meaningless if we get out of the water to speak in tongues while we are committing adultery.




No one is mature? Again, you gauge this by your own standard of experiences. People you may personally, know? You yourself being your greatest example of a Christian struggling in sin? Therefore you feel it is impossible to be mature in a way where you don't commit the same crimes as you did as a young convert Ephesians 4:28.



The Apostle Paul gave not only his credentials but that he was without fault concerning the Law. We also read in Luke that Zacharias and Elizabeth was blameless before God Luke 1:6. In Ezekiel 14:14 we are given a list of three men of God who would of cut the mustard with God. Noah, Daniel and Job. Was that post Pentecost Acts 2:38? New Testament Calvinist band-aid on a bullet wound? No, they were Old Testament law keepers, who by faith looked for the one who would come later, who is Jesus Christ. We all live by faith, and are renewed day by day 2 Corinthians 4:16. The outer man, carnal, childish, beast nature perishes (if we let it) and the inner man grows to an adult. Outer man perishes, and the inner man matures Colossians 3:10. Only you can stop this process. Jesus is able to keep us, but Jesus is a gentleman, He will never force us to follow Him.



But instead of looking around you for the example of mature perfection, look at Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Paul told the Corinthians to follow him as he followed Christ. Christ was his pastor, his only legitimate example, or maturity in perfection. Putting on the mind of Christ Philippians 2:5-8 is the helmet of salvation Ephesians 6:17, and walking in the light as He is in the light 1 John 1:7 brings us to the ultimate goal of growing up in Him Ephesians 4:15.



Costeon, now you are singing the song of truth, but in the next quote you flip flop?



You are focusing on the wrong thing. The focus isn't on you, your own ability to walk on water, but the ability that He is calling you to walk out there and go to Him. Jesus promises you to complete the good work in you, that is our focus, not that what if, or maybe I don't, or someday over the rainbow I trip and fall into sin. Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH. The best time to prove to ourselves that we can do this through Christ is in our darkest hour. When no one can see us, when we are put to the test, and we are able to be at peace to hold onto the victory in Jesus.



But don't you think that may be a problem? That it is that sort of immaturity within us to self justify, by convincing ourselves that there are levels in sin?
Sin is displeasing God, it is being instructed in how to get the job done, and failing to WANT to complete the task at hand. Want and need are two very different things, and we may need to do it but we don't want to do it. Immature, and mature, getting out of bed to face the world, no matter how bad it is for us, mature, staying under the bed when we need to face the world, immature. Having to schlep the first fruit of your harvest out to the altar, because it is expected of you because its your religious duty. Hence the sacrifice is rejected because its immaturity on your part. Your brother on the other hand can't wait to bring the first fruit of his flock, and slides into the altar with total unbridled devotion. His sacrifice is ecstatically received.



Calvinism is a bit confusing, because it double speaks itself. It talks about intimate relationships with God but still messing up from time to time. Double mindedness is called spiritual instability, but Calvinism teaches just that, ecclesiastically bi polar Christianity. We are actually taught to be like Cain. Just go out there and do the Christian dos and don'ts, talk Christianisms act Christianisms, and God will accept the sacrifice. Not to be like Abel who was totally in love with God, and going beyond the shopping list.

What you have written is very interesting, thought-provoking.

Unfortunately, I clearly cannot explain what I believe so things are said in response to my posts that make it clear I haven't been fully understood.

I'm not a Calvinist, though there are similarities in various reformation views of justification that I may embrace.

I think I now understand Michael the Disciple's position, but I still don't think I understand your position. For him perfection is sinlessness, and only the perfect are saved, so if you die in the state of imperfection, you are lost.

I appreciate that you have written a lot, but can you succinctly state what perfection or maturity means? Or let me just ask you simply, do you ever sin? For example, do you ever not love your neighbor as yourself. If you do sin, are you lost at that moment and remain so till you repent?

Thanks for your time and patience in explaining your views.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I think I do now understand what you mean by perfection. Thank you for clarifying. One is perfect when one is perfectly obedient, that is, sinless; one is imperfect when one imperfectly obeys. Salvation is only for those who are perfect. When on sins, one loses one's perfection, but regains it upon repenting; therefore, if one should die or be alive when the Lord returns and be in the state of imperfection, he will be sent to hell.

It won't really help for me to go line by line and show you how I disagree with your interpretation of the Scripture. I won't change your mind, and you won't change mind. So, my goal now is just to urge you to remove all inconsistencies from your position.

You say: "Its not that one instantly loses their salvation. What he does lose is perfection toward God." You have repeatedly asserted that one must be perfect to be saved. So, you cannot then say that there are any times of when someone is imperfect but still saved. You are either perfect and saved or imperfect and lost. Those are the only alternatives for your view.

I will continue to disagree with your position, but I will respect your consistency if you just say, "Yes, a person is lost the moment he sins and is imperfect and remains lost till he repents and is perfect again, because only the perfect will enter the kingdom of God."

You added: "If we have sin in our life we are not perfect toward him. God gives us time to repent. If the sin remains in our life God will withdraw his favor from the person. We are not given to know how long one can keep sin in their life before God chastens them. Neither how long before he no longer considers them his."

This idea could work with my view but not yours.

So here are the implications of your view:

- Jesus doesn't love you when you sin and are imperfect. (I'm not sure what the alternative is. Does he hate you? Is he indifferent toward you?) He loves you again when you repent. His love is, therefore, entirely dependent on your behavior. He's worse than a human father who doesn't cease loving his children even though they may do something displeasing to him.

- You have a works-based salvation. As I mentioned in a previous post: "If our salvation is dependent on my moment by moment obedience--my perfection--then I am in effect saving myself. If I lose my justified status the instant I have failed in any way, then my justification is based on me not on Christ's grace."

These are, in my opinion, unbiblical implications and so your interpretation of passages that lead to them must be incorrect.

Costeon,

Have you considered the scriptures I presented? You cant always just box everything in a little package and consider it all right. All scripture is true. The only thing I'm doing is presenting the half of the whole counsel of God you rarely hear.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

What you have written is very interesting, thought-provoking.

Unfortunately, I clearly cannot explain what I believe so things are said in response to my posts that make it clear I haven't been fully understood.

I'm not a Calvinist, though there are similarities in various reformation views of justification that I may embrace.

I think I now understand Michael the Disciple's position, but I still don't think I understand your position. For him perfection is sinlessness, and only the perfect are saved, so if you die in the state of imperfection, you are lost.

I appreciate that you have written a lot, but can you succinctly state what perfection or maturity means? Or let me just ask you simply, do you ever sin? For example, do you ever not love your neighbor as yourself. If you do sin, are you lost at that moment and remain so till you repent?

Thanks for your time and patience in explaining your views.

Wages of sin is death?

Did that happen to go away with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?
What does “go sin no more less a worst thing happen to you” actually mean?

Also, thank you for your patience in this discussion.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Costeon,

Have you considered the scriptures I presented? You cant always just box everything in a little package and consider it all right. All scripture is true. The only thing I'm doing is presenting the half of the whole counsel of God you rarely hear.

Yes I did read them, and let me say that I appreciate the time that you have taken to express your views and to help me understand them. I just disagree with your ultimate conclusions about what these scriptures mean and have noted two implications of your conclusions: (1) Jesus doesn't love you if you're not sinless and (2) you're saving yourself by your obedience, that is, it's a system of works righteousness.

I agree that the whole counsel of God must be presented and that in much of evangelicalism is does seem that most neglect holiness of life altogether. So yes, I think this should be corrected, but I just think you have over-corrected.

Now about the inconsistency that I noted in my previous post. Do you see why I would say that your overall view of perfection in relation to salvation does not really allow for the idea that a person is not immediately lost when he has lost his perfection? In other words, do you see why I said that your view only allows for the idea that one is immediately lost at the moment of sin?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Yes I did read them, and let me say that I appreciate the time that you have taken to express your views and to help me understand them. I just disagree with your ultimate conclusions about what these scriptures mean and have noted two implications of your conclusions: (1) Jesus doesn't love you if you're not sinless and (2) you're saving yourself by your obedience, that is, it's a system of works righteousness.

I agree that the whole counsel of God must be presented and that in much of evangelicalism is does seem that most neglect holiness of life altogether. So yes, I think this should be corrected, but I just think you have over-corrected.

Now about the inconsistency that I noted in my previous post. Do you see why I would say that your overall view of perfection in relation to salvation does not really allow for the idea that a person is not immediately lost when he has lost his perfection? In other words, do you see why I said that your view only allows for the idea that one is immediately lost at the moment of sin?

Lets look to Rev 3:1-2

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

These saints works were not perfect. Obviously Jesus expected they would be. Yet he tells them strengthen the things that remain. Their works are not perfect but he has not yet cut them off.

VS 3

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Jesus urges them to repent! He has told them to hold fast so apparently they have something to hold onto. They are not merely tares. He warns them of consequences. The first is they will miss his coming.

VS 4

4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

The majority in this New Testament Church works were not perfect. They had defiled their garments. A few had not defiled their garments and their works WERE perfect.

Jesus could tell the difference between these 2 groups in the Church. He never just saw them "through the blood" neither saw them all as perfect. He says the ones who had not defiled their garments were worthy to walk with him.

VS 5

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The overcomers were the few Jesus said were worthy. What about those whose works were not perfect? Whose garments were defiled?

He makes no promise to not blot out their name from his book. So it had not yet occured. There was time for repentance.

So what do we learn here? Jesus expects his peoples works to be perfect. In some cases they are not. They are not perfect. No longer worthy to walk with Jesus. Their garments are defiled. This must mean they have sin in their lives. At this point they are not qualified for immortality. Jesus gives them a chance to repent. We dont know how long that was going to be.

They were out of his will. They had been judged by Jesus and found wanting. Its true if they did not repent he would blot out their names. Yet at that point he had not. He was showing them mercy.

VS 5

[Michael The Disciple]

(1) Jesus doesn't love you if you're not sinless and (2) you're saving yourself by your obedience, that is, it's a system of works righteousness.

How did the works righteousness thing play out for those in Sardis whose works were not perfect? Did Jesus see THEM the same as he saw the group who he counted worthy?

Who is it that was calling the shots to them? Was it a "system"?

Or was it a PERSON?

We are saved or lost by whether we have the grace (favor of God) in our lives.

Thats between Jesus and a person.

It has nothing to do with a theological "system". Salvation is not contained in mens systems but in Jesus Christ himself.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Now about the inconsistency that I noted in my previous post. Do you see why I would say that your overall view of perfection in relation to salvation does not really allow for the idea that a person is not immediately lost when he has lost his perfection? In other words, do you see why I said that your view only allows for the idea that one is immediately lost at the moment of sin?

I don't understand the above. How does when lose maturity or completeness in Christ? 1 John 3:7 please explain this portion of verse for me.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Lets look to Rev 3:1-2

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.[

These saints works were not perfect. Obviously Jesus expected they would be. Yet he tells them strengthen the things that remain. Their works are not perfect but he has not yet cut them off.

Does the passage call the ones who are said to be dead "saints"? I don't see that. All the passages you list like this one and in the other posts (e.g., Ananias and Sapphira) involve people who are dead spiritually; they are not alive in true faith. You bring up extreme examples of people like Ananias and Sapphira that are irrelevant for a discussion about sincere believers who are seeking to live for Christ but who may fail in thought, word, or deed, from time to time.

4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

The majority in this New Testament Church works were not perfect. They had defiled their garments. A few had not defiled their garments and their works WERE perfect.

Jesus could tell the difference between these 2 groups in the Church. He never just saw them "through the blood" neither saw them all as perfect. He says the ones who had not defiled their garments were worthy to walk with him.

VS 5

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The overcomers were the few Jesus said were worthy. What about those whose works were not perfect? Whose garments were defiled?

He makes no promise to not blot out their name from his book. So it had not yet occured. There was time for repentance.

So what do we learn here? Jesus expects his peoples works to be perfect. In some cases they are not. They are not perfect. No longer worthy to walk with Jesus. Their garments are defiled. This must mean they have sin in their lives. At this point they are not qualified for immortality. Jesus gives them a chance to repent. We dont know how long that was going to be.

They were out of his will. They had been judged by Jesus and found wanting. Its true if they did not repent he would blot out their names. Yet at that point he had not. He was showing them mercy.

VS 5

Just be consistent, Michael. To be consistent with your overall view, the defiled were already lost. The only ones not blotted out are the perfect. The imperfect are blotted out. If the defiled are not qualified for immortality, they weren't in some intermediate state of not perfect but still saved. Jesus is giving them a chance to repent and be saved again. So, again, your view really doesn't allow any leeway. Just embrace the fact that your view demands that any sin brings condemnation and a person remains in that state until he repents.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Costeon, it is simple New Testament fact that we are saved by grace, but judged by works. Revelation 2:2, Revelation 2:9, Revelation 2:13, Revelation 2:19, Revelation 3:8, Revelation 3:15. All begin with I know they works. Faith without works is no longer faith.