Billy Graham

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Onesiphorus was an Apostolic like Paul. Paul is praying that Onesiphorus find mercy at judgement. Not because Onesiphorus was a Baptist or Greek Orthodox. Listen this is simple logic, Jesus explicitly stated that there were those who did wonderful miracles in His name, who would be cast out.

I agree. I just don't believe you or I are omniscient enough to make the judgment before Christ does.

Jesus said that the road to eternal life is hard to navigate, and the entrance tight, and a small number will find how to enter.

True. And let me guess, you're certain you've found it.

I'm real sorry brothers, but the Puritans and Calvinists who first colonized this country have infected every Christian group which came after them. Even the Roman Catholic Church while retaining its doctrine of free will, believes that if you were a good "Christian" you may just get a pass. Apostolic soteriology isn't shaking the preacher's hand and getting some literature. It is to do as the Apostles.

Wrong.

I believe that God is sovereign. That means God can do as He wills, for whatever reason He chooses, when He chooses. And no, God never contradicts His Word. However, God's Word is firm on the sovereignty of God. So, if God acts sovereignly, it should be of no surprise. Also, While God doesn't contradict His Word, God often contradicts our human sectarian interpretations of it.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

My answer is YES.

preach! no one should be walking the truth back into a corner for fear of hurting someone's feelings.

Elijah didn't and neither did Paul. (Thanks to Pastor Lindsay for preaching about this yesterday)

1 Kings 18:17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?

Acts 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.
6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.
8 And they troubled the people and the rulers of the city, when they heard these things.

[Aquila]

Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe it is our duty to pray for the salvation of all men. Even those whom we might believe didn't receive the fullness of divine truth. In this, we pray for them while they are alive, praying that they come into the full knowledge of the truth and be saved. For those who came only so far, I believe that we continue to pray that they receive greater understanding. And those who perish in that state, I believe in praying that God has mercy upon them. And at that point, the book is closed. At that point, it is in the hands of God. And I believe that whatever judgment God makes concerning a soul in the judgment is righteous, just, and true. It's my last and final prayer of intercession for those who I know are in desperate need of a sovereign grace.

It is also evangelistic. For many "Christians" were deeply touched in their lives by Billy Graham. But praying for God to have mercy on the man, and leaving it in the hands of God, I leave doors open to win those who, like him, don't have the fullness of truth. But... if they read my arrogant words of condemnation, professing that Graham busted Hell wide open, that Graham was lost without hope, that he was a heretic, that he hasn't a snow ball's chance in Hell, etc., etc.... I know that my words will appall them. And my attitude and spirit will cause many of them to write me off before they've heard anything I have to say. I have family members who were touched by Billy Graham's ministry. Do you think they'll receive anything I have to say if I vehemently proclaim that I believe Billy Graham is burning in Hell???

Praying a final intercessory prayer, for a sovereign move of God's grace, isn't a sin. It is actually reveals the character and desire of the heart of that individual praying said prayer. It testifies that he or she desires all men to be saved. It testifies to that individual's trust and belief in God's sovereignty. And it testifies to their unwillingness to make eternal judgments based on outward appearances. To me, I believe it reflects a greater spiritual maturity than the spitting and fussing spirit that insists with clinched fists that someone is burning in Hell because they "followeth not us".

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by robogreg_2000

We should let God be God and not try to pass judgement on where Billy Graham went! God is his judge just like he will judge me and the entire world.Believe it or not,many people who are baptized in Jesus name will be in hell as sure as the demons will !

We are letting God be God, by relaying what Jesus and His apostles WARNED us about. I know how hard this is, because we tend to hold an image of Jesus which is pretty much corrupt. Allow me to clarify, a Jesus who allows leeway, based on our own righteousness. Which isn't righteous, but what we feel is righteous based on our own religious standard. Billy Graham didn't preach the Gospel, he preached the vedas. He said he didn't preach God's judgement but God's love,and that he couldn't judge Muslims or Jews because that wasn't his call. A partial teaching is just that, partial, and will get everyone in trouble. God will judge us by His word, and our fruit is what is judged by God's word. Period. Posting that people who are baptized in Jesus name will be in a lake of fire with demons, doesn't negate that Jesus name baptism is scriptural truth. Just your emotional response as you judge by your own feelings. You get pulled over by a police officer for doing 100 mph in a 55 mph zone. But you have the excuse that your wife is pregnant and ready to have a baby. If he takes you and your wife to the hospital in his car, and writes you a citation and has your car towed, is he a bad cop? No, because you actually did quite a few things which are extremely dangerous. Not only to you, but to your wife, unborn child, and the community. But through emotion we look at that cop as being messed up for loading you with tickets and impounding your car when you finally get to the hospital. The Levites were supposed to TEACH the people between the holy and the profane, that isn't cussing, and smoking cigarettes. That is what is in the Law. It doesn't suit you own righteousness? Sorry, but we don't get it our way, not our will, but His be done.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe it is our duty to pray for the salvation of all men. Even those whom we might believe didn't receive the fullness of divine truth. In this, we pray for them while they are alive, praying that they come into the knowledge of the truth and be saved. For those who came only so far, I believe that we continue to pray that they receive greater understanding.

The above is excellent, and proper.

Originally Posted by Aquila

And those who perish in that state, I believe in praying that God has mercy upon them. And at that point, the book is closed. At that point, it is in the hands of God. And I believe that whatever judgment God makes concerning a soul in the judgment is righteous, just, and true. It's my last and final prayer of intercession for those who I know are in desperate need of a sovereign grace.

Again, this is making out God to be the bad guy, because if He doesn't have mercy on the law breakers He wasn't as merciful as WE are? Jesus and the apostles lined it out for us. Paul is telling Timothy that we are to be tearing it up in prayer that they come to the Truth. Those Judeans who continued in the Law of Moses and rejected the teachings of Messiah were lost. Same way as the Kabbalist Gnostic Judaizers, while they were probably sweet as pie, they were still rebuked at their judgement. Mercy isn't mercy, if people climb up another way, and that other way wasn't given out as an option for the rest of us. Dig it?

[Aquila]

And only a fool would challenge God's sovereignty, and assume that they know the mind of God and that God agrees with their human interpretations of theology. The Trintiarians committed this grave and terrible sin. We do well not to follow their example.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The above is excellent, and proper.




Again, this is making out God to be the bad guy, because if He doesn't have mercy on the law breakers He wasn't as merciful as WE are? Jesus and the apostles lined it out for us. Paul is telling Timothy that we are to be tearing it up in prayer that they come to the Truth. Those Judeans who continued in the Law of Moses and rejected the teachings of Messiah were lost. Same way as the Kabbalist Gnostic Judaizers, while they were probably sweet as pie, they were still rebuked at their judgement. Mercy isn't mercy, if people climb up another way, and that other way wasn't given out as an option for the rest of us. Dig it?

What if someone believed that it would be easier for God to have a sovereign mercy on Billy Graham, before an Apostolic with a bad spirit??? For unto whom much is given, much will be required. And for with what measure one might judge, that is the measure one must meet.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

And only a fool would challenge God's sovereignty, and assume that they know the mind of God and that God agrees with their human interpretations of theology. The Trintiarians committed this grave and terrible sin. We do well not to follow their example.

Chris, if you say that God will circumvent His own warnings to us, and allow some to go in another way. You are actually having God agree with your human interpretations of theology. Again, sola scriptura out the window, and hello your own personal Jesus.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What if someone believed that it would be easier for God to have a sovereign mercy on Billy Graham, before an Apostolic with a bad spirit???

Chris, that is a no brainer is it not? Why would Jesus, and His apostles be dead silent on this? Do you not believe that there were Rabbis who were sweet, kind, loving, cared for everyone, and would take a Roman sword for their people? Yet, rejected Jesus Christ because He didn't fit their theology? Did God have mercy on them outside of His specific warnings? This is amazing how American Churchanity took away the Bible as we still hold it.

Originally Posted by Aquila

For unto whom much is given, much will be required. And for with what measure one might judge, that is the measure one must meet.

Exactly, therefore we need to walk circumspectly and work out our OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, if you say that God will circumvent His own warnings to us, and allow some to go in another way. You are actually having God agree with your human interpretations of theology. Again, sola scriptura out the window, and hello your own personal Jesus.

You're presupposing that you're the expert and final arbitrator of God's own warnings. You're presupposing that you have it all figured out. And... as a result... you're going to face the same measure of judgment. In other words, if you're going to be so narrow in your judgment... you better have it all together, exact, on point, no error. Absolute perfection in theology... when you stand before Him.

You see... God is just. The measure with which we measure is the measure we must meet. Some Apostolics you might judge as being loose goose... will enter in on account of having been merciful and loving beyond measure. Many who were so strict in their judgment based on their own human presuppositions of interpretation will be cast out... because they weren't as exact in their theology as they demanded of others.

It is one thing to believe that this narrow path is God's will, walk in it, and teach it. It is entirely another to play God and judge others by it.

It is also dangerous to deny God's sovereignty. Whatever God wills... is just. Even if it seemingly breaks all the rules... as we might know them.

Give room for error in your own walk. Come at things as one who "believes"... not as one who arrogantly "knows", when in truth... you don't.

Because if you demand absolute perfection of others... it will be demanded of you.