Angels reproducing with humans possible?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Ok, then where did the giants came from?
for we do know that there were giants in the earth in ancient times.

please explain the existence of giants.

Read the verse again...it implies EVERYONE was GIANT....this was a stand alone passage that had nothing to do with cross breeding...that came LATER

4 There were giants in the earth in those days;

and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


Now the Ark was bigger than most folks believe. Our cubit is approx. 18 inches long, Noahs would have been quite larger. (possibly 2 ft.)

The smaller the Noah, the smaller the cubit, the smaller the Ark.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Sean

Read the verse again...it implies EVERYONE was GIANT....this was a stand alone passage that had nothing to do with cross breeding...that came LATER

4 There were giants in the earth in those days;

and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


Now the Ark was bigger than most folks believe. Our cubit is approx. 18 inches long, Noahs would have been quite larger. (possibly 2 ft.)

The smaller the Noah, the smaller the cubit, the smaller the Ark.

Ron Wyatt demonstrated this when he measured the supposed remains of the ark. The length agreed with the egyptian cubit rather than the Hebrew.

[Michael The Disciple]

Anyone know what this means?

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 6.

What angels does this refer to? Chapter and verse please.
What was their first estate?
What does it mean they left their own habitation?
What similarity do they have to Sodom?

Is it possible they could be the same angels as THESE?

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

When the 2 angels that rescued Lot appeared as men, did they cease to be angels?

We aren't discussing them.

We are discussing
THESE
Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day--

[Michael The Disciple]

Josephus was a Jewish historian around the time of Christ. His comments about the wicked angels.

The first-century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus described part of the story this way:

For many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better: but seeing they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land. [iii]

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

That is what I have been trying to make you folks think about, you are teaching mythology and LEGENDS....

The bible is Legend and mythology? NOT!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Uh...Noooooo. They did not lie. lol

Where did you get the 10 spys lied?

It appears they were lying because of the Hebrew word, "dibba", which means: "to slander or defamation". Giving a false or unjustified report is lying.

context shows they were Giants

By why stop there. Did you read what I posted about Goliath?

The context shows Goliath was a VERY LARGE MAN.

1Sa 17:4 And a champion named Goliath came out of the Philistines camp; he was from Gath. His height was six cubits and a span.

Jos 11:22 There were none of the giants left in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod there remained some.

Context

The Giants of gath were descendents of Anakim (no not Luke's father)

Who were called Nephilim

thats what I mean by context. the word Nephilim does not mean "Giants", but it was a word USED for a race of Giants.

Thats why I say looking u a word's definition does not tell the whole story

Thought this an interesting read.

The Nephilim

Mr. Zecharia Sitchin contends that the word "nephilim" means "those who came down from above" or "those who descended to earth" or "people of the fiery rockets" (see The Twelfth Planet, pp. vii, 128ff.).

These translations, of course, serve his purpose -- to see the Nephilim as ancient astronauts. As such it is hard to over-estimate the importance of Sitchin's work here - if he's wrong about the meaning of nephilim, much of his overall thesis falls.

Unfortunately for Sitchin, such translations are completely out of step with the Hebrew Bible. Sitchin makes a number of erroneous conclusions about the form and meaning of the word nephilim that I've addressed in this PDF document. (click link below for pdf document - 8 pages - interesting read) What follows is a brief sketch.

Sitchin assumes "nephilim" comes from the Hebrew word "naphal" which usually means "to fall." He then forces the meaning "to come down" onto the word, creating his "to come down from above" translation.

In the form we find it in the Hebrew Bible, if the word nephilim came from Hebrew naphal, it would not be spelled as we find it. The form nephilim cannot mean "fallen ones" (the spelling would then be nephulim). Likewise nephilim does not mean "those who fall" or "those who fall away" (that would be nophelim).

The only way in Hebrew to get nephilim from naphal by the rules of Hebrew morphology (word formation) would be to presume a noun spelled naphil and then pluralize it. I say "presume" since this noun does not exist in biblical Hebrew -- unless one counts Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33, the two occurrences of nephilim -- but that would then be assuming what one is trying to prove!

However, in Aramaic the noun naphil(a) does exist. It means "giant," making it easy to see why the Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) translated nephilim as gigantes ("giant"). Here is a screen shot (not good quality) of Aramaic naphil(a) from Morris Jastrow's Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and Yerushalmi, and the Midrashic Literature (1903; page 923, or page 243 of 1061 of the online PDF of volume 2).

Notice that Jastrow actually gives us the form of the plural in Aramaic: nephilin (ending in "n" not "m" as Aramaic plurals do). It is most likely that nephilim is an Aramaic term imported into Hebrew during the final editing of the Hebrew Bible in Babylon (where Aramaic was the lingua franca) and then the ending was corrected to Hebrew rules of word formation. Both phenomena are known in the Hebrew Bible. The notes on this below are from the scholarly 2 volume work, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew, by P. Jouon and T. Muraoka (Paragraph 90, sections c and d-a):

As noted above, Sitchin wants to argue the term nephilim means "those who CAME DOWN from heaven" so he can make the nephilim sound like ancient astronauts. Not only does this confuse two characters in the Genesis 6 episode (the sons of God and the nephilim are not the same; they are different groups; see below), but it is a translation impossibility with respect to biblical Hebrew grammar. The verb "to go down" in biblical Hebrew is not naphal; it is yarad. The verb naphal can mean something approximate to "came down" under one condition: it must occur in the Hiphil ("causative") stem in Hebrew grammar. If you know Hebrew, you know this is because the Hiphil stem adds either a prefixed letter to the verb and an a-class vowel (or both) in the verb conjugations, and any such occurrences in the Hebrew Bible are therefore not spelled "nephilim."

Lastly, I want to discuss what is still to me an amazing error in Sitchin's printed work. Granted, I do not believe Sitchin knows much about the ancient languages in which he claims expertise, but this error is especially shocking. Why? It shows Sitchin cannot tell the difference between Hebrew and Aramaic--and they both use the same alphabet.

In his book Stairway to Heaven, Sitchin quotes from a Dead Sea Scroll called the Genesis Apocryphon 110-112. In an effort to defend his idea that the nephilim and the sons of God are the same, he writes: "But as we examine the Hebrew original, we find it does not say 'watchers'; it says 'Nephilim'."

The quotation shows that Sitchin did not know the Qumran text was written in Aramaic, not Hebrew, and he also mistranslated it, for the word "Watchers" is actually in the text he quotes AND has pictured in his book!

To the right is an image of the transcription of the passage in Sitchin's book and a translation. Both come from The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition Vol. 1:Q1-4Q273 - Vol II: 4Q274-11Q31 CD , ed. by Florentino Garcia Martinez and Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar, scrolls specialists (our text is in volume 1). The pink word is the word for "Watchers" and the yellow word is the word Sitchin notes in his quotation, "nephilim." Sitchin either did not know the word "Watchers" was indeed in the text, or left it out of his discussion. Since BOTH words appear in his transcription in his book, I'm not sure which is the case.

http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/nephilim/nephilim.htm

[Michael The Disciple]

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

Anyone like to comment on the nature of TARTARUS? Why would it be in the Bible?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

Anyone like to comment on the nature of TARTARUS? Why would it be in the Bible?

tartaroō tar-tar-o'-o From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades)

What is there to know? It's Hades like all the other definitions about Hell that lead to the same place.

2 Peter 2:4 Interlinear

"If indeed - God [the angels] having sinned not spared but in chains of gloomy darkness having cast [them] to the deepest abyss delivered [them] for judgment being kept.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It appears they were lying because of the Hebrew word, "dibba", which means: "to slander or defamation". Giving a false or unjustified report is lying.

No//
Num 13:25 At the end of forty days they returned from spying out the land.
Num 13:26 And they came to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation of the people of Israel in the wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh. They brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land.
Num 13:27 And they told him, "We came to the land to which you sent us. It flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit.
Num 13:28 However, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large. And besides, we saw the descendants of Anak there.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the Negeb. The Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the hill country. And the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and along the Jordan."
Num 13:30 But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, "Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it."
Num 13:31 Then the men who had gone up with him said, "We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are."
Num 13:32 So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, "The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them."

Notice in vs 27 it says "they" which refers to the Spies...all of them.

The word of which you speak does not mean "to lie". Again CONTEXT.

It means to give a bad

dibbāh: A feminine noun meaning slander, bad report, calumny. It is used of the true but negative report of the ten spies to Canaan (Num_13:32; Num_14:36-37), but it also depicts an accurate report concerning evil things (Gen_37:2). It describes a report given for an evil purpose, e.g., to defame someone (Pro_10:18), i.e., slander, which will destroy the person who spreads the story as well. It includes whispering in the sense of spreading slander against someone (Psa_31:13 [14]; Jer_20:10) but also in the sense of repeating an unfortunate truth about people behind their backs (Eze_36:3).

In fact in the next verse the two spies that gave a good report never repudiated the others version as a lie. Rather they supported it by stating essentially "With God's help we can defeat this people"

Num 14:6 And Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, who were among those who had spied out the land, tore their clothes
Num 14:7 and said to all the congregation of the people of Israel, "The land, which we passed through to spy it out, is an exceedingly good land.
Num 14:8 If the LORD delights in us, he will bring us into this land and give it to us, a land that flows with milk and honey.
Num 14:9 Only do not rebel against the LORD. And do not fear the people of the land, for they are bread for us. Their protection is removed from them, and the LORD is with us; do not fear them."

See? They did not say it wasn't true.

Also whoever wrote Numbers said

Num 13:22 They went up into the Negeb and came to Hebron. Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, were there. (Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)

The NET commentary says of this phrase

21 sn These names are thought to be three clans that were in the Hebron area (see Josh 15:14; Judg 1:20). To call them descendants of Anak is usually taken to mean that they were large or tall people (2 Sam 21:18–22). They were ultimately driven out by Caleb.

Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition Notes (Nu 13:22). Biblical Studies Press.

Who wrote Numbers? Was he lying too?