What is Adultery?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

I didn't say that.

If he was having sex with the other woman before he married her he was committing fornication and adultry and it of course is most likely a disqualifer and a at a minimum a long long trip to the penalty box.

If he had relations with her after re-marriage then while far from the ideal it isn't sin biblically using the mosaic law. Also if he had her as a concubine that would classify it differently also under the law but since we don't have concubinage in todays society it would be a near impossible stretch to go there.

Isn't a concubine essentially a mistress?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Neck

Regardless of the men in the OT, a Bishop must be the husband of "one wife'

Take into mind that Paul is writing under Roman law which prohibitted polygamy and often pressured the Jewish people who did to abide by Roman law. Paul doesn't make moral declarations against the men of the OT but admonishes Christian leaders to be husbands of one wife. It would appear that Paul's admonishion was according to the "law of the land" not Law of God.

Just a few random thoughts.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by U376977

If I remember history, this happened with Swaggert. He had a very brief period in which he "repented" and for the most part was forgiven by the church crowd and started to preach again. But was soon caught, yet again, with a prostitute in his car. That time...people were not as quick to forgive.
You mentioned Haggard, I read where his book is coming out and he and his wife are planning a tour to promote it, no doubt he will take a pulpit soon. Yet another well known minister admitted to a gay affair and went through "restoration" and after just a short time is ministering every Sunday in a large church, and is still preaching very well.

I think the track record for forgivness by the church is very good if the minister shows the fruit of repentence.

Do you not think so?

No, I don't think the track record is good. The cases you mentioned, Swaggart and Haggard, I don't believe are good examples. Swaggart was battled tooth and nail by his organization who didn't want him to return and he ended up leaving that group, and Haggard was fired. Neither of these ministers were embraced with grace, forgiveness, and restoration.

And I don't believe requiring running Haggard through a two-year program of all sorts of things they wanted him to do (of which he dropped out) is restoration and programs like that have no biblical precedent.

Haggard, I believe, is starting a new church back in Colorado Springs. He has started holding meetings in his home. All the things you mentioned that he's doing, he's doing on his own, not restored back to his previous position, and he's being heavily criticized for it.

Swaggart? Well, he hasn't done so well. I don't know if you've watched his program lately, but I could more easily deal with him taking car drives with call girls than the attitude that he displays now on his program. I'd say he's easily the most condemning, hateful, name-calling, self-righteous, bitter "preachers" I've ever heard. It's shocking.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by U376977

I'm sorry, I thought I had made that clear. This "minister" committed adultery with wife #1 and had an affair. Continued the relationship with the new hottie. "Repented" for the adultery and eventually divorced wife #1, and married the new hottie, who became wife #2.
Now, after about 1 1/2 years, into the marriage with wife #2 he is being brought out of "restoration" by his leadership and allowed to minister in a co-pastor role at one of the biggest churches in this sect of christianity.

My thinking is that he has not even repented, and is much less qualified to be a minister. He is a reproach and a joke to everyone except the gullible church people who have swallowed the pill of "God will forgive" you and "he just made a mistake!"

These are quotes I have heard in the last week!!

IMO he should be selling cars and not intruding back into a pulpit.....If he repented he'd never had stayed with the new hottie.

But what does the scriptures say?

He's been under restoration for about 1 1/2 years. I know he sinned with this woman. However, it normally takes two to devestate a marriage. What was his first wife doing? Was she meeting his needs emotionally and physically? Was she defrauding him? Was she abusing him emotionally or verbally (an increasing phenomenon)? What part did his first wife play?

I say this because a marriage is rarely wrecked by just one party's behavior. This man, while he did “sin”, may have “sinned” with a woman who truly loved him more than his first wife ever did or could. For all we know his first wife may have been an absolute witch behind closed doors. He didn’t just use his mistress; he married her after his divorce. It sounds like he’s trying to build another family. If he was unrepentant he’d certainly not marry his mistress. He’d be out in the clubs playing the game.

Sadly, for all we know his new wife may be far more supportive, prayerful, and genuinely loving than his first wife. He has no doubt had many dark hours of soul where he felt like it’s not worth pursuing and facing the jeering crowds. But behind every man is a woman who is supporting him. I don’t doubt that there have been nights when his new wife has held him while he wept and her words mended his soul, “I believe in you.”, she whispers. His hopes and dreams begin to live again. The embers from the fire of his calling begin to burn again.

This man also has his pastoral ministry behind him. They obviously have forgiven him. In addition they obviously see the level of spiritual devotion in his new marriage. For all we know his ministry may see more devotion from him and his new wife than him and is first wife.

Also consider his guts. This man is going to face far more flack and fire getting back into ministry than some fancy pants kid from Bible College or some brother who has never faced the tragedy of divorce. If his calling isn’t real, I can’t see how or why he’d face such scrutiny and outright friendly fire from so many. In a way, it’s impressive.

King David was a man after God’s own heart. King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, Uriah’s wife. Afterwards, she discovered that she was with child. King David then had Uriah killed so he could marry Bathsheba. David was both an adulterer and a murderer. David was rebuked and suffered tremendous loss as a repercussion of his actions… but God continued to bless and USE David. In addition God continued to bless the nation for his servant David’s sake for several hundred years afterwards. Even in the book of Revelation Jesus is related to David as both the “root” and “offspring” of David.

This man may be a great leader who had a terrible first marriage. He might know quite a bit more about marriage trouble and woes than some one who’s never faced such a storm. The marriage he has now might be more ideal in the areas of support and devotion even though they had a less than perfect start.

I’d vote to give him a chance. If this happens again, I’d say he’s finished.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Aquila

However, it normally takes two to devestate a marriage. What was his first wife doing? Was she meeting his needs emotionally and physically? Was she defrauding him? Was she abusing him emotionally or verbally (an increasing phenomenon)? What part did his first wife play?

I say this because a marriage is rarely wrecked by just one party's behavior.

Two wrongs never make a right, to use a very true cliche.

If a marriage is horrible and must end, then end it. THEN find a new wife if that's what you need to do. Finding 'someone new' while you are married is not okay. Ever.

Do things in the correct order.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Two wrongs never make a right, to use a very true cliche.

If a marriage is horrible and must end, then end it. THEN find a new wife if that's what you need to do. Finding 'someone new' while you are married is not okay. Ever.

Do things in the correct order.

I agree, but sadly life on this fallen world is often far more complicated.

I've often considered this... Bathsheba's name means "daughter of the oath", or loosly translated, "woman of promise". Is it possible that Bathsheba was David's woman of promise? Perhaps Uriah would have died at some point and David could have wooed her more appropriately.

I know Scripture teaches that what God has joined together, let no man put assunder. However, what if God didn't put that first marriage together? What if in the wake of their fallen natures, genuine repentance, and brokenness God did join these two together?

Point is, people make mistakes and sin. God appears to be a God of second chances. I say give the man a second chance. Before I faced my divorce I was very strict with how I viewed this. Today, I realize that grace and mercy are far more precious than gold. If the man demonstrates a pattern by falling into this sin again, I feel justified refusing him an office in the church. I just feel it's in keeping with the Spirit of Christ to offer that second chance.

I'd at least use him in lay ministry (which flies in the face of the priesthood of all believers but that's another topic) if he had a calling and anointing.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Point is, people make mistakes and sin. God appears to be a God of second chances. I say give the man a second chance. Before I faced my divorce I was very strict with how I viewed this. Today, I realize that grace and mercy are far more precious than gold. If the man demonstrates a pattern by falling into this sin again, I feel justified refusing him an office in the church. I just feel it's in keeping with the Spirit of Christ to offer that second chance.

I'd at least use him in lay ministry (which flies in the face of the priesthood of all believers but that's another topic) if he had a calling and anointing.

I've been through some stuff, too, so I'm not just sitting on the sidelines shooting blindly. But, I still feel strongly that we need to not lose sight that there still is right and wrong. A right way to do things, and a wrong way. It's not enough to just say 'well, we don't know all of the circumstances'. There are many reasons why God was against adultery. The pain and devastation it causes is monumental, and everyone needs to be very aware of that, and not forget it when they're in the place of temptation. Just because you've hurt me doesn't give me the right to put a bomb under your chair, and adultery is very much like a bomb.

That said, I absolutely believe in forgiveness and restoration. I would have no problem with someone being restored to 'lay ministry'. But leading a congregation is a different matter.

And, yes, all of this is going with our current method of doing things. House church, etc., might be a different ballgame altogether.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Two wrongs never make a right, to use a very true cliche.

If a marriage is horrible and must end, then end it. THEN find a new wife if that's what you need to do. Finding 'someone new' while you are married is not okay. Ever.

Do things in the correct order.

I 100%, absolutely agree and I can't imagine that anyone would disagree. But here's the question...what do we do when the order is violated? Does it give the death sentence for ministry?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I 100%, absolutely agree and I can't imagine that anyone would disagree. But here's the question...what do we do when the order is violated? Does it give the death sentence for ministry?

It very well might.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I 100%, absolutely agree and I can't imagine that anyone would disagree. But here's the question...what do we do when the order is violated? Does it give the death sentence for ministry?

I think that to effectively discuss that, you'd have to get into the whole church setup. As it is, and as it was intended. As Aquila mentioned, you have the 'priesthood of all believers' to sort out, and then how leadership was really intended to operate... elders, deacons, etc. And what the qualifications are for those positions.

Our setup is not perfectly biblical now, anyway, so our standards for 'ministry' have been adjusted to work with the way we do things.

So, how to biblically deal with 'failure' in 'the ministry' is a fairly complicated subject.