I shocked at the White remark in Lowery's prayer

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

Possibly just a different point of view. Since not all "whites" (fact is I'm a true white...I don't tan a lick) on AFF took it as inflamatory... it must mean we just see things differently.

But why even say "some"? Some blacks are bad. Some "reds" are bad. Some of everything are bad...When I heard "change is coming" I was expecting more of a positive Utopian sort of change...

[Hoovie]

I do not think this was a rhyme the Rev. wrote. I understand this is a common saying among African Americans. Perhaps we are missing the cultural and historical aspect of the saying? Could it have been a bit TIC?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by PraiseHymn

...

For the record, I'm not a racist nor did I see the statement that Lowery made to be a racist remark. Stop trying to rewrite history. It is what it is. White people did black people wrong (in the past) and now FINALLY we have begun to heal from all the pain and hurt that was caused. I thank and praise Jesus Christ (who is God almighty) that finally we are beginning to be as one. AMERICANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're making a mistake by lumping every "white" person into the same bag. The history of race and human conflict is much more complex than that. And you are mistaken when you attack whites with the statement "Its a one way street. So in essence, a white person could never say "until blacks do whats right" when we are talking about racial inequality."

I hesitate to provide the many examples that prove your error because I am concerned by what comes across as a racist tone in your post. So let me introduce you to myself and my family - at least a little bit, first.

My youngest son is so "white" (fair skinned) that he has had to endure taunts from other kids just like I did when I was a kid. In your attempts to relive the pain of your ancestors, have you ever considered what it's like to be taunted just because of the color of your skin? I have suffered those taunts and I am "white."

One cruel irony for my son is that though he is so white other people make fun of him, his great uncle (click the link and read about a real hero!) was in fact "black" (a local NAACP Chairman!) and was burned alive by a mob of klansmen in 1966. As a "white" kid my son carries that heritage.

You mentioned the word "slavery." Do you know where that word comes from? It comes from the word "Slav." My grandmother was Bohemian and a Slav. In order to describe the terrible injustice "your people" suffered - you have to invoke "my people's" name! Now whose ancestors suffered the most? Yours or mine?

My great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather, Jacob Gipson, founded what must have been the first racially integrated churches on this continent. I have minutes from meetings from the 1790's through 1804 that describe the rather mundane comings and goings of the members of one of those churches in South Carolina. The people rejoiced when a "free black" or a "slave" joined the church just as much as they did when a "planter" or a "smithy" joined.

I have the census records of just about every member of my family from the very first US Census in 1790 onward. During the period of slavery in the United States the far right hand column was for the number of slaves owned by the individual listed. I have yet to find a family member with anything in that column. I did find an account in church records where my namesake and a "black" brother were admonished by the church for "drinking spirituous liquors" together. That happened in the late 1790's. Despite the drinking, do you think the ancestor for whom I was named had "embraced what was right," at least when it comes to racial issues?

Another historical point to consider when you look at slavery: The slave traders were never allowed inland in Africa during the period of the terrible slave trade. Instead, they purchased their captives from African tribes that had captured other Africans in the interior. The biggest slave trading nation throughout that period was the black African Kingdom of Benin, though the infamous Rei Juan (Portugese for King John) of Angola must have come in a close second. Benin's empire in those days covered almost all of modern day Nigeria and up through Ghana.

In other words, the slave trade could never have existed if it weren't for the blacks in Africa who were providing the product for the trade by capturing and selling other Africans.

What about the suffering of blacks today? It's real. Just take a look at the US prison population - it's disprortionately black. Some say that's because of the past legacy of slavery - not so! The phenomena of the black prison population is relatively new. And the suffering? Statistics have shown that the highest number of crimes committed by a person of color were committed against another person of color.

Basically, blacks treat other blacks far worse than whites in general do.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I do not think this was a rhyme the Rev. wrote. I understand this is a common saying among African Americans. Perhaps we are missing the cultural and historical aspect of the saying? Could it have been a bit TIC?

TIC or not, it was still negative. If I called someone a moron and assured them it was alright because I said it TIC, does that make it less pejorative?

[Praxeas]

Thanks Pel. You know, slavery is very old and from what I have seen most of it was the same race but just a different nation.

Sometimes there was a religious aspect to it. Sometimes it was just a matter of the spoils of war.

What I find to be troublesome for our nations is we seem to constantly have to relive the past, force guilt on the present and I don't see a future where that will change.

If there is a problem in race relations I really don't think continuing the finger pointing at an entire race is going to solve things.

[George]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

TIC or not, it was still negative. If I called someone a moron and assured them it was alright because I said it TIC, does that make it less pejorative?

Exactly.

If it was meant to be a rhyme, he could have said "light." Or...

cite
height
might
night
plight
sight
tight

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

It so happens that none of my ancestry had slaves. Not for 500 years at least. So I am guilty for what, being white?

same here. Guilt by association.

BTW ever hear of a genetic fallacy? I found this example interesting
The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.

The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit. The first criterion of a good argument is that the premises must have bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim in question.[1] Genetic accounts of an issue may be true, and they may help illuminate the reasons why the issue has assumed its present form, but they are irrelevant to its merits. [2]

Example
"You're not going to wear a wedding ring, are you? Don't you know that the wedding ring originally symbolized ankle chains worn by women to prevent them from running away from their husbands? I would not have thought you would be a party to such a sexist practice." There may be reasons why people may not wish to wear wedding rings, but it would be logically inappropriate for a couple to reject the notion of exchanging wedding rings on the sole grounds of its alleged sexist origins.

[NewWine]

I watched the entire inaugural ceremony, parades, etc. yesterday. I thought everything went very well with the exception of the presidential oath; which was flubbed big time, and Lowery's "prayer". As I sat and listened I was unmoved by what he was saying; that is until he said the infamous line that has the nation's eyes bugging out of their heads. My first thoughts were that he was doing what I call a "Jesse Jackson"; just rhyming words. I literally froze when he said that. I could not believe that he said that, particularly after all the Jeremiah Wright issues. He should have know better than to do that. Absolutely poor judgment on his part. To me that really put a damper on things. Those present cheered because IMHO they chose to look at the day in its entirety, rather than a brief few minutes.

However, had he considered the millions of people that were there, I think he would not have used "right" to rhyme with "white". For example, there was an elderly black man and white woman that attended the ceremony. Both of them were Freedom Riders; and both were arrested for doing what was right. When I think of what whites such as she went through to take a stand for him to be able to stand there and use poor judgment, it is very saddening to me. And I am an African American.

[Nina]

Originally Posted by pelathais

One cruel irony for my son is that though he is so white other people make fun of him, his great uncle (click the link and read about a real hero!) was in fact "black" (a local NAACP Chairman!) and was burned alive by a mob of klansmen in 1966. As a "white" kid my son carries that heritage.

The picture of Mr Dahmer, lying in a hospital bed, horribly burned, with his family standing around is still in my mind. I saw this in a documentary a while back.

I believe the perpetrators repented, from what I remember.

I'd like to ask:

How we can KNOW when we, as a Nation, have truly overcome?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Nina

The picture of Mr Dahmer, lying in a hospital bed, horribly burned, with his family standing around is still in my mind. I saw this in a documentary a while back.

I believe the perpetrators repented, from what I remember.

I'd like to ask:

How we can KNOW when we, as a Nation, have truly overcome?

Never. It is impossible. As long as there are sinners there will always be conflict. That is why it does not help anyone to finger point at an entire race. The only and best thing we can do is take a positive approach, treat each other with equal respect and look forward, only looking back to remind ourselves of what we don't want to return to, not looking back to hold it eternally over the heads of an entire segment of our society,

That is not progress.