If You Are A Disciple

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by james34

Dodge accepted.

MOPAR. I may be buying one Monday. 74 Charger SE. Has a 318 which will get worked over until I can do 12.0x on the quarter mile.

Vroooom!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by james34

Are we still looking for a resurrection of the dead in Christ. The one where there is neither marrying nor being given in marriage.

But just so you don't run out and buy a Chevy...

While I can't speak for anyone else, as for me, yes I am looking forward to the resurrection. Are you?

[1 God]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You are taking the Bible like any other religious group, and placing your own preconceived notions into the verse. Simeon was promised by God that he would behold the King who would restore Israel. Jesus did just what Simeon was awaiting. Bringing total restoration to Israel. Those in Jesus' time didn't believe He was the savior because the Judean religions at that time predicted that it would happen different ways. So when Jesus came on the scene, even His own heralder "John the Baptist" missed it, "are you the one who was to come or should we look for another?" Matthew 11:3. God told John who Jesus was, John 1:33. Yet, John doubted when physical situations didn't play out the way John theologically expected them to play. Therefore, Jesus had to send John this explanation of Matthew 11:5. John doubted no more because the words of the prophet were being fulfilled Isaiah 29:18-19, Isaiah 35:5, and Isaiah 61:1-2.

As my brother Esaias beautifully and masterfully explained, those who you believe to be natural physical Israel aren't those who were spoken about in the Bible.

...RISING AGAIN of many in Israel, correct?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by 1 God

...RISING AGAIN of many in Israel, correct?

You writing your own Bible? "And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against." You left out an important word which means ruin, downfall, to crash. So the child was to bring the ruin to some, and the restitution to others. The Bible isn't understood through snippets , but understood in it's totality of books. Taking words and verses out of their context is how everyone from Atheists to Mormons build their misconceptions. Hey, it is a free country, and far be it from me to convince you otherwise. We have over 4,000 different schisms and denominations in this country alone. All believing differently. All of their members will eventually die, and then God will sort them out. So, I'll end with this, believe what you want, and enjoy your weekend.

[1 God]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You writing your own Bible? "And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against." You left out an important word which means ruin, downfall, to crash. So the child was to bring the ruin to some, and the restitution to others. The Bible isn't understood through snippets , but understood in it's totality of books. Taking words and verses out of their context is how everyone from Atheists to Mormons build their misconceptions. Hey, it is a free country, and far be it from me to convince you otherwise. We have over 4,000 different schisms and denominations in this country alone. All believing differently. All of their members will eventually die, and then God will sort them out. So, I'll end with this, believe what you want, and enjoy your weekend.

All I am saying is it says that many in Israel will fall and rise again. That is clearly national Israel and not the church. No other way to see that.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by 1 God

All I am saying is it says that many in Israel will fall and rise again. That is clearly national Israel and not the church. No other way to see that.

The church isn’t Israel?

So, God has… 2 brides? Or a new bride (the church) and an ex (Israel) getting alimony?
A concubine??

Please explain.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1 God

All I am saying is it says that many in Israel will fall and rise again. That is clearly national Israel and not the church. No other way to see that.

"No other way to see that."

But your conclusion as to what that means is not warranted. You have imported into the text certain meanings and interpretations that simply aren't there.

You ASSUME a priori that "Israel and the church are two separate entities" and THEN point to the text as "proof" of your assertion. That's called begging the question and is a fallacy, an ERROR.

The church is Israel -

Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

New covenant Israel is the new covenant church and vice versa. Because you are a dispensational futurist, you cannot wrap your mind around that concept. And therefore you cannot understand the Bible.

For anyone else reading: Israel is the people of God, descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were given a covenant at Sinai, they broke that covenant, so God made a new covenant WITH THE SAME PEOPLE - ISRAEL (see Hebrews 8:8 etc). Those "gentiles" who acknowledge Israel's King, Jesus the Christ, and enter that covenant, are "grafted into" the commonwealth of Israel:

Ephesians 2:12-16 KJV
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And again:

1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: [10] Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

And again:

Romans 11:24 KJV
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

We see then that the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus does not find its origin in, is not sourced from, and does not belong to, this world, or as you can see from the Greek, this cosmos.

The Greek word kosmos refers to the arranged order of things, up to and including the entire universe. In John 18:36, it refers to the world system of man. Christ's Kingdom then, is not a human construct, thus making it unlike any other kingdom this world has ever known. It is a spiritual kingdom, a kingdom of the heart and mind.

It's even deeper than that, brother.

The kingdom of God is just that, a kingdom. A kingdom is literally the "dominion of a king". A dominion is a sphere or sector dominated or ruled by someone, the "dominus" or "lord/ruler" of that area of concern.

So the kingdom of God in the moral or spiritual sense is the dominion or RULE of God as king. So how does a king rule? Via LAW.

So the kingdom of God refers to the rule of God via His law, like here:

Hebrews 8:10 KJV
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

What I'm saying is the Scriptures as the word of God are literally the laws of God which govern His kingdom. And He desires us to allow Him to write His laws into our hearts so that our obedience is based on Christ ruling from our inner nature rather than just some external social control mechanisms.

And the Great Commission is a commissioning to the church to spread that message:

Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We are called to teach the nations, to disciple them, to train them to obey Christ. God by His Spirit writes His laws into their hearts so they begin to obey God as a byproduct of who they are. It's inside them so they in a sense can't help BUT obey God.

Our mission then is to propagate the kingdom of God, that is, we are to propagate the moral and spiritual RULE of God to all nations. As people submit to Christ those nations are reformed, that is, their societies are conformed more and more to the law (and thus the will) of God.

The idea of the church as a lifeboat escaping the sinking Titanic, while useful up to a point, has nevertheless been twisted to mean the church is nothing more than an escape hatch from life. So Christians "tune in, turn on, and drop out." Too many Christians today are just modernized ecclesiastical hippies.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by 1 God

All I am saying is it says that many in Israel will fall and rise again. That is clearly national Israel and not the church. No other way to see that.

No, that's not all you are saying. You are quoting the scripture through your own personal interpretation. Same, as any atheist, Baptist, or Greek Orthodox, or the UFO cult, Nation of Islam. All take scripture and give those scriptures their own meaning...like you. Yet, Simeon totally understood that events were to happen in his lifetime. Hence the reason Simeon asks God that he would not die until he witnessed the Christ. Did he also understand his words to mean that a group of non Judean Europeans would adopt a 15th century A.D. religion call Talmudic Rabbinical Judaism? That the ancestors of the European Jews would want to down play the religious aspect of their ancestors, and create a new socialist group called Zionism? Ah, no.

The fall and rising wasn't talking about destruction and rebuilding of Modern day Israel. The babe Simeon held in his hands and spoke blessing over wasn't born to complete His work 2,000 and counting years in some far off future. The fall (or ruin) was that some would reject the Christ, Herod, some of the Judean religious elite, and some would be born again Nicodemus, Shaul Paulus Tarsus. As one alive from the dead John 3:1-5, Romans 6:13.


So, the whole thing that Simeon was saying that Jesus was born for the fall and rising of Modern day Israel, is false. Simeon was saying that Jesus was born to be a stumbling stone of offence. Some would be broken by Him, yet sadly, others would be crushed to powder by Him.

The Gospel is the main focus, given first to the Judeans, and later to the Greeks. Saying that a bunch of people living in Brooklyn, Miami, and Modern Israel, who have absolutely ZERO relations with the Biblical Israelis of the Bible. Saying they have some special carte blanche for salvation. Is teaching another Gospel.

But I better save my breath to cool my porridge.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"No other way to see that."

But your conclusion as to what that means is not warranted. You have imported into the text certain meanings and interpretations that simply aren't there.

You ASSUME a priori that "Israel and the church are two separate entities" and THEN point to the text as "proof" of your assertion. That's called begging the question and is a fallacy, an ERROR.

The church is Israel -

Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

New covenant Israel is the new covenant church and vice versa. Because you are a dispensational futurist, you cannot wrap your mind around that concept. And therefore you cannot understand the Bible.

For anyone else reading: Israel is the people of God, descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were given a covenant at Sinai, they broke that covenant, so God made a new covenant WITH THE SAME PEOPLE - ISRAEL (see Hebrews 8:8 etc). Those "gentiles" who acknowledge Israel's King, Jesus the Christ, and enter that covenant, are "grafted into" the commonwealth of Israel:

Ephesians 2:12-16 KJV
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And again:

1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: [10] Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

And again:

Romans 11:24 KJV
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?