The Present reign of Jesus Christ

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

This is different from the kingdom reign Esaias is talking about.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

This is good Isaias, I just want to add, that what we don't seem to realize is the kind of kingdom that Christ came to set up. We as people seem to think that God must rule all people to a point that no one does any thing wrong. But that is not the way God has ever worked.

We don't question that God was all powerful all knowing and all seeing in the old testament. Yet we want the kingdom of God to control the emotions of everyone today or God must not be on the throne?

What we must understand is that the whole purpose of Christ coming was not to change the world into an utopia, but to come make salvation available to everyone not just to the Jew but the world. In doing so, he set up the kingdom of God to the world.

But Christ never came as a dictator, and never shall be. His very ministry should show us that. His kingdom gives us power over satan and as children of God we are kings and priest in a spiritual sense but we will never be in a physical sense. That is not what the kingdom of God is about.

No kingdom ever was "physical". What is a kingdom? The dominion of a king. It has a ruling government, which is not a thing but people/a person. The government of any nation is really a collection of ideas existing in the hearts and minds of those who submit to those ideas.

Dominion exists within the heart and mind. This is true of the moral ("spiritual") government of God, and it is true of every human government as well. So all the talk of "physical kingdoms" is really missing the key point: ALL moral power operates within the individual.

What makes Christ's kingdom "spiritual" is that it is of God and not man ("carnal"). And what really does that mean? It means the ruler is God, the law is divine (spiritual), the citizens are spiritual (led by God nd not the flesh/self/sin).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If we see the Apostles or "Apostolic Faith" as examples of this doctrine it looks as if they failed big time. All of them were killed by the world except John. They never caused any nation to become entirely righteous.

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The church's mission is not to "cause ...nation(s) to become righteous". It's mission is to teach and disciple the nations, which has been happening since the day of Pentecost. The first generation most certainly did not fail. If you study the NT closely you will discover the apostolic faith was making inroads in every strata of society, including the Imperial family itself.

The conversion (so called) of Constantine demonstrated that Christianity had so saturated the Empire that not only could it be decriminalised, but the Empire could begin repressing paganism. The spread of the apostasy resulting in catholicism, the rise to power of the bishops of Rome, and the establishment of catholicism as the official religion of the Empire are all part of the prophesied course of events. But they are also a necessary part in the ultimate conquest of mankind by Christ which is still ongoing. Let me demonstrate.

The dominion of papal Rome brought about conditions necessary for people to clearly see Rome's true spiritual condition. This brought on the so called Reformation. Meanwhile, by Christianizing the Empire, and converting all of Europe and western Asia to an acknowledgement of Christ as Sovereign laid the foundation for Western civilization as we know it. Once the Reformation took place, and people everywhere embarked on a back-to- the- Bible movement (with varying degrees of success), entire nations based their entire law codes and social structures on the Bible.

Do you know why we have three branches of government, and a separation of powers? Because the founding fathers understood man is sinful and must be restrained in the exercise of authority. All of modern civilisation has roots in scripture and in God's ways. The world is slowly but definitely being taught the law of God.

This is a long term thing. There are periods of reformation and revival, and periods of declension and backsliding (like we see now). It is a conflict. And like every conflict, there are ups and downs and advances and retreats. There are several prophesied "programs" going on simultaneously that go all the way back to Abraham and even the Garden of Eden. Too often we become myopic, and can't see the forest for the trees. We focus on the here and now and lose track of the big picture. We think OUR particular immediate social issues are THE defining issues of all things. But this is a mistake.

As for understanding the reign of Christ, when understood correctly by the church in general, the church is properly equipped with the correct worldview to be able to deal with whatever issues come up. Look at the state of Christianity in America today. More churches than in all of history, but they have less impact on the culture and community than in all of history. Why? In large measure it is due to not believing the Gospel. What Gospel? The Gospel OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Christ's DOMINION, His REIGN, and everything that entails.

Once people start to get ahold of THAT, it changes how they LIVE. It changes how they view politics, medicine, commerce, religion, education, family, EVERYTHING. And THAT'S how the world gets turned upside down.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The church's mission is not to "cause ...nation(s) to become righteous". It's mission is to teach and disciple the nations, which has been happening since the day of Pentecost. The first generation most certainly did not fail. If you study the NT closely you will discover the apostolic faith was making inroads in every strata of society, including the Imperial family itself.

The conversion (so called) of Constantine demonstrated that Christianity had so saturated the Empire that not only could it be decriminalised, but the Empire could begin repressing paganism. The spread of the apostasy resulting in catholicism, the rise to power of the bishops of Rome, and the establishment of catholicism as the official religion of the Empire are all part of the prophesied course of events. But they are also a necessary part in the ultimate conquest of mankind by Christ which is still ongoing. Let me demonstrate.

The dominion of papal Rome brought about conditions necessary for people to clearly see Rome's true spiritual condition. This brought on the so called Reformation. Meanwhile, by Christianizing the Empire, and converting all of Europe and western Asia to an acknowledgement of Christ as Sovereign laid the foundation for Western civilization as we know it. Once the Reformation took place, and people everywhere embarked on a back-to- the- Bible movement (with varying degrees of success), entire nations based their entire law codes and social structures on the Bible.

Do you know why we have three branches of government, and a separation of powers? Because the founding fathers understood man is sinful and must be restrained in the exercise of authority. All of modern civilisation has roots in scripture and in God's ways. The world is slowly but definitely being taught the law of God.

This is a long term thing. There are periods of reformation and revival, and periods of declension and backsliding (like we see now). It is a conflict. And like every conflict, there are ups and downs and advances and retreats. There are several prophesied "programs" going on simultaneously that go all the way back to Abraham and even the Garden of Eden. Too often we become myopic, and can't see the forest for the trees. We focus on the here and now and lose track of the big picture. We think OUR particular immediate social issues are THE defining issues of all things. But this is a mistake.

As for understanding the reign of Christ, when understood correctly by the church in general, the church is properly equipped with the correct worldview to be able to deal with whatever issues come up. Look at the state of Christianity in America today. More churches than in all of history, but they have less impact on the culture and community than in all of history. Why? In large measure it is due to not believing the Gospel. What Gospel? The Gospel OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Christ's DOMINION, His REIGN, and everything that entails.

Once people start to get ahold of THAT, it changes how they LIVE. It changes how they view politics, medicine, commerce, religion, education, family, EVERYTHING. And THAT'S how the world gets turned upside down.

excellent post

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Your previous arguments don't proof that point. Could you please explain more in details how that it is?

1 Cor 15 is about resurrection. Paul introduced the thought that there are only two resurrections anyone will ever experience physically. There was that of Christ the firstfruits, when he actually came from the grave and many of the saints of old were seen. Then, and only then, after that is the ones raised who are Christ's people at His coming. There is not a resurrection before after or during a tribulation as well as another one after a millennium. Paul said ONLY TWO resurrections of people being made alive form the dead will have occurred before it';s all over and done with.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24.. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ..(23).. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ..(24).. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


The cometh the end. Where is the millennium? The thousand years could have been inserted there. But the end comes next, and not the millennium.

After Christ's resurrection in the "firstfruits" category the only other one is that at Christ's coming, and then the END COMES. No room for another age with another third resurrection. No gap for another age and third resurrection.

The end comes

1 Corinthians 15:24-25.. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. ..(25).. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The kingdom is then handed to the Father who put all authority under the feet of the Son, as Psalm 110:1 says the Father would put the Son's enemies under the Son's feet. .

Psalms 110:1.. A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So, 1 Cor 15:24 refers to the Psalm 110:1 statement. And verse 25 does as well with the putting under of all enemies, and Christ's rule up until that time.

1 Corinthians 15:26.. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

And Paul taught that the last enemy of them all that are listed as going beneath Christ;s feet is death. But notice he is talking about this in the context of resurrection from the dead, because death is put under his feet in victory over death when resurrection occurs. Death is conquered when people rise from the dead.

And because death is the last enemy to be put under Christ's feet, and this occurs when the only resurrection to follow Christ's takes place at his coming, we see two facts that disallow a millennium afterward. First of all, there are no more resurrections after the one at his coming. Futurists teach a millennium after the coming of Jesus with another resurrection at the end of that millennium. Or, if they do not call the resurrection before the millennium by the title the "coming of Christ", they call it the appearance of Christ, or vice versa, so as to distinguish an apparent difference between two different times a different resurrection takes place in our future. I forget the terms they use to make the distinction. Suffice it to say, there are two times Jesus resurrects people in our future separated by one thousand years of a millennium, or just a very long period of time, depending on whether you take 10000 literally or not.

The resurrection at His coming is not said to be followed by a thousand years or any other long stretch of time only to see another resurrection. The END comes at Christ's coming. Death is defeated at Christ's coming when that last enemy of Christ's is put under his feet. That means there simply is no more death. Not in a millennium where people live long periods of a lifespan in contrast to today, or ever. .

The reason I know this is by the words of Paul that claim death is defeated at Christ's coming. And then we read later in the same chapter that death loses its sting and the grave loses its victory. That is synonymous with saying death is conquered. And the phrase, "death is swallowed up in victory," is also the same thing as saying death is the last enemy and is defeated and put under Christ's feet.

Now, since we see a direct correlation between death's defeat in verse 26 and verses 54-55, we are given to know that the mortality that is swallowed up of immortality, and the corruptible that's swallowed up of incorruption, when the moment occurs, the twinkling of an eye when all who are alive and are dead are CHANGED, is the same moment death is defeated in verse 25. And what is the resurrection we are reading about in verses 54-55? It is what you would call the rapture. It is what you would say is the resurrection before the millennium. This makes the rapture, before any future millennium, the END when death is defeated. It makes the time of the rapture the coming of Jesus when those who are His are given life from death.

It makes the rapture of verses 51-55 the one and the same resurrection as verse 23. And that is when death is defeated, with both no more physical death after that possible for anyone, as well as no further resurrections left for anyone else to experience later. There is only ON E RESURRECTION in our future according to this chapter. Not one before the millennium and another after the millennium.

This chapter is the most exhaustive teaching on the future resurrection we find in the bible. It's very physical, for we read:

1 Corinthians 15:35-36.. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? ..(36).. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Something must have died in order for it to be resurrected in this resurrection. That cannot mean something non-physical, as though the resurrection is a spiritual non-physical body that comes out of our physical bodies when we die, because the thing that rises must be the same thing that dies first. And there is no death in a non-physical body that comes out of a physical body at death. The same element that is raised has to be the element that died, and that can only the be the physical body. The soul of a saint does not die in the future after salvation so it can rise again. The spirit of a saint certainly does not follow that pattern either. The thing that dies is the thing that rises in resurrection. So, verse 36 nullifies any idea of a non-physical resurrection.

But the correlation between verse 26's defeat of death with verses' 54-55's defeat of death are one and the same victory at the same moment.

So, there is no room for a millennium to occur after this resurrection to be followed by another resurrection.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

1 Cor 15 is about resurrection. Paul introduced the thought that there are only two resurrections anyone will ever experience physically. There was that of Christ the firstfruits, when he actually came from the grave and many of the saints of old were seen. Then, and only then, after that is the ones raised who are Christ's people at His coming. There is not a resurrection before after or during a tribulation as well as another one after a millennium. Paul said ONLY TWO resurrections of people being made alive form the dead will have occurred before it';s all over and done with.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24.. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ..(23).. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ..(24).. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The cometh the end. Where is the millennium? The thousand years could have been inserted there. But the end comes next, and not the millennium.

After Christ's resurrection in the "firstfruits" category the only other one is that at Christ's coming, and then the END COMES. No room for another age with another third resurrection. No gap for another age and third resurrection.

The end comes

1 Corinthians 15:24-25.. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. ..(25).. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The kingdom is then handed to the Father who put all authority under the feet of the Son, as Psalm 110:1 says the Father would put the Son's enemies under the Son's feet. .

Psalms 110:1.. A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So, 1 Cor 15:24 refers to the Psalm 110:1 statement. And verse 25 does as well with the putting under of all enemies, and Christ's rule up until that time.

1 Corinthians 15:26.. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

And Paul taught that the last enemy of them all that are listed as going beneath Christ;s feet is death. But notice he is talking about this in the context of resurrection from the dead, because death is put under his feet in victory over death when resurrection occurs. Death is conquered when people rise from the dead.

And because death is the last enemy to be put under Christ's feet, and this occurs when the only resurrection to follow Christ's takes place at his coming, we see two facts that disallow a millennium afterward. First of all, there are no more resurrections after the one at his coming. Futurists teach a millennium after the coming of Jesus with another resurrection at the end of that millennium. Or, if they do not call the resurrection before the millennium by the title the "coming of Christ", they call it the appearance of Christ, or vice versa, so as to distinguish an apparent difference between two different times a different resurrection takes place in our future. I forget the terms they use to make the distinction. Suffice it to say, there are two times Jesus resurrects people in our future separated by one thousand years of a millennium, or just a very long period of time, depending on whether you take 10000 literally or not.

The resurrection at His coming is not said to be followed by a thousand years or any other long stretch of time only to see another resurrection. The END comes at Christ's coming. Death is defeated at Christ's coming when that last enemy of Christ's is put under his feet. That means there simply is no more death. Not in a millennium where people live long periods of a lifespan in contrast to today, or ever. .

The reason I know this is by the words of Paul that claim death is defeated at Christ's coming. And then we read later in the same chapter that death loses its sting and the grave loses its victory. That is synonymous with saying death is conquered. And the phrase, "death is swallowed up in victory," is also the same thing as saying death is the last enemy and is defeated and put under Christ's feet.

Now, since we see a direct correlation between death's defeat in verse 26 and verses 54-55, we are given to know that the mortality that is swallowed up of immortality, and the corruptible that's swallowed up of incorruption, when the moment occurs, the twinkling of an eye when all who are alive and are dead are CHANGED, is the same moment death is defeated in verse 25. And what is the resurrection we are reading about in verses 54-55? It is what you would call the rapture. It is what you would say is the resurrection before the millennium. This makes the rapture, before any future millennium, the END when death is defeated. It makes the time of the rapture the coming of Jesus when those who are His are given life from death.

It makes the rapture of verses 51-55 the one and the same resurrection as verse 23. And that is when death is defeated, with both no more physical death after that possible for anyone, as well as no further resurrections left for anyone else to experience later. There is only ON E RESURRECTION in our future according to this chapter. Not one before the millennium and another after the millennium.

This chapter is the most exhaustive teaching on the future resurrection we find in the bible. It's very physical, for we read:

1 Corinthians 15:35-36.. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? ..(36).. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Something must have died in order for it to be resurrected in this resurrection. That cannot mean something non-physical, as though the resurrection is a spiritual non-physical body that comes out of our physical bodies when we die, because the thing that rises must be the same thing that dies first. And there is no death in a non-physical body that comes out of a physical body at death. The same element that is raised has to be the element that died, and that can only the be the physical body. The soul of a saint does not die in the future after salvation so it can rise again. The spirit of a saint certainly does not follow that pattern either. The thing that dies is the thing that rises in resurrection. So, verse 36 nullifies any idea of a non-physical resurrection.

But the correlation between verse 26's defeat of death with verses' 54-55's defeat of death are one and the same victory at the same moment.

So, there is no room for a millennium to occur after this resurrection to be followed by another resurrection.

Thoughts? What am I missing?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Thoughts? What am I missing?

When I read in Ephesians that we are now seated and reigning with Christ, The amillennial view point makes sense.

When I read Revelation though, there seems to be room for another interpretation.

The passage I have bolded below isn't clear to me when compared to Ephesians.

Revelation 20 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Thousand Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit[a] and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Amanah

When I read in Ephesians that we are now seated and reigning with Christ, The amillennial view point makes sense.

When I read Revelation though, there seems to be room for another interpretation.

The passage I have bolded below isn't clear to me when compared to Ephesians.

I believe this is referring to old covenant saints who died and were raised to the seating with Christ when the new covenant was in place at Christ's atonement. He saw SOULS. Departed saints.

John the Baptists represents the law, and he was beheaded. The symbol is old covenant saints coming into the new covenant to be seated with Christ as we are.

Revelation symbolically will agree with what the prophets, Jesus and the apostles taught plainly without symbolism.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

When I read in Ephesians that we are now seated and reigning with Christ, The amillennial view point makes sense.

When I read Revelation though, there seems to be room for another interpretation.

The passage I have bolded below isn't clear to me when compared to Ephesians.

That we are now seated and reigning with Christ is included in the idea presented in Revelation 1:6. In Revelation the church has (past tense) been made kings and priests (thus are enthroned in the heavenlies in Christ), yet in ch 20 after the destruction of the beast and false prophet and their armies the saints are seated on thrones to judge as part of the first resurrection.

So there is no discrepancy between Ephesians and the Revelation or between being seated now in the heavenlies and participating in the victory described in Revelation 20. Two phases of the reign of Christ and His saints.

Just as Christ overcame death and we have eternal life in Him now, yet in the future what we have in Him will be manifested or fulfilled in its completion in us when we are resurrected.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Amanah

When I read in Ephesians that we are now seated and reigning with Christ, The amillennial view point makes sense.

When I read Revelation though, there seems to be room for another interpretation.

The passage I have bolded below isn't clear to me when compared to Ephesians.

I just want to add that we are not seated and reigning with Christ. What Ephesians says is that we are:

[Eph 2:6-7 NKJV] 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

Notice that it says "in", not "with".

Somehow Paul connects the fact that we are seated in heavenly places now with the following verse.

7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Notice that it uses the phrase "ages to come", which Jesus identifies with the resurrection in Mar 10:30 and Luk 18:30. And then it says "show the exceeding riches of His grace". So the Ephesians hadn't received grace yet?, No, but Paul was talking about the future resurrection and glory to come, where the grace of God is going to be shown on us in the resurrection and the coming revelation of his glory.