Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 06-26-2018, 01:48 PM
jediwill83's Avatar
jediwill83 jediwill83 is offline
Believe, Obey, Declare


 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tupelo Ms.
Posts: 3,912
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The belief in a sin nature is like trinitarianism. It is something that must be in existence first, and then Bible verses are sought out which are seen to "prove" the doctrine. Just like the trinity. Yet, mysteriously, there is not one passage where any prophet, apostle, or Christ himself taught that mankind is born with a "sin nature". There is no passage anywhere that defines this so-called "sin nature". There aren't even any passages which describe the doctrine of a "sin nature".

The sin nature doctrine leads necessarily and inevitably to the Immaculate Conception doctrine, in order to explain how Christ somehow missed inheriting a sin nature from His mother. Since all descendants of Adam possess a sin nature from birth, it necessarily follows that humans inherit the sin nature from their parents. It likewise follows that Christ, since He was born of a woman and is a biological descendant of David, and thus of Adam, Christ must necessarily have inherited this same sin nature. But that of course is not possible. Therefore, to avoid the dilemma of confessing either that Christ had a sin nature on the one hand, or that Christ was not genuinely human on the other hand, a doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" is created whereby Mary was supernaturally conceived in her mother's womb "without the taint of original sin". That way, Jesus could be both fully human and yet without inheriting a sin nature. Hocus Pocus, a la peanut butter sandwiches, voila!

The sin nature doctrine is a Roman Catholic doctrine, pure and simple. It was essentially invented by Augustine, who had not shaken off his Manichaean dualism from his gnostic days. His brand of gnostics believed that there was something inherently evil about flesh itself, something evil about material (physical) things. Yet the Bible does not speak of the human body itself as evil, but rather the "body of sin" or the "flesh" by which is meant the life of sin.

Romans 8:5-9
(5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
(6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Here it is clear that being "in the flesh" has nothing whatsoever to do with being a physical human with a real physical body. Since receiving the Spirit places a person in the category of "NOT in the flesh" yet people who receive the Spirit do not suddenly become disembodied spirit beings, it necessarily follows that "flesh" is used MORALLY, not biologically.

Paul clearly states the apostolic doctrine of the voluntary nature of sin:

Romans 6:19
(19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Previously, we YIELDED ourselves to serve iniquity and uncleanness. This is clearly a voluntary action, meaning it is a choice of the will. Voluntarily surrendering to unrighteousness produces a bondage:

Romans 6:16
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you YIELD yourself (voluntary choice of the will) to serve something, you become that something's bond-slave, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.

The doctrine of an inherited sin nature makes sinning involuntary. And if it is involuntary, it has no more any kind of moral character, no more than eating, drinking, or farting has. And therefore, there can be no guilt attached to sin, since you cannot be GUILTY in a moral sense (that is, you cannot be TO BLAME) for things that you cannot in any way shape or form avoid. If you cannot help yourself, then you are not truly TO BLAME. Blame is nothing else than the moral character of not doing what you OUGHT to do. But you cannot "ought to do" something you literally cannot do.

If God commanded you to flap your arms and fly about the sky, you could not possibly obey. And your failure to obey cannot possibly be a cause of BLAME. To BLAME you for failing to flap arms and fly would be unjust, UNRIGHTEOUS, because you cannot be held to account for that which you literally cannot do. How can it be said you OUGHT to do that which is literally IMPOSSIBLE for you to do?

Jude 1:14-15
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

To properly convict a person of their sin, they must actually be to blame for their sin. There is a reason the old KJV uses the term "convince" instead of "convict". The reason is that a proper conviction requires proof "beyond any reasonable doubt". And the Final Judgment will include sinners themselves being without excuse. They will themselves be convinced, or convicted, of the truth of God's Judgment.

But if the sin nature doctrine is true, every sinner has the most plausible excuse for their sin, and will never be convinced of their actual guilt. The conscience, which recognises guilt and innocence, right and wrong, praise and blame, can never be convinced that the unable are to blame.

No more than you would assign moral guilt to a retarded child for their actions.



Dude this is VERY interesting.


Maybe we need a closer focus on training to be a moral and ethical church.....
__________________
Blessed are the merciful for they SHALL obtain mercy.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 06-26-2018, 02:00 PM
Old Paths's Avatar
Old Paths Old Paths is offline
Psalms 132:1


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,367
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

For mankind sin is a chose and people CHOOSE to sin.
__________________



DOCTOR Old Paths for all your spiritual needs.


STILL believing the same after all these years
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 06-26-2018, 02:52 PM
Evang.Benincasa's Avatar
Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood too


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,250
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Paths View Post
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

For mankind sin is a chose and people CHOOSE to sin.
Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 06-27-2018, 12:16 AM
votivesoul's Avatar
votivesoul votivesoul is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,478
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by jediwill83 View Post
Dude this is VERY interesting.


Maybe we need a closer focus on training to be a moral and ethical church.....
Absolutely. The "you're a vile, wretched sinner" doctrine out of the Calvinist paradigm has hurt the Apostolic Church for too long. Redemption is to be redeemed, to be made worthy and accepted in the beloved.

I am a natural born citizen the United States. I have the LEGAL RIGHT to all the rights and privileges my being born here grants to me. I deserve my citizenship by right of birth.

What's different about new birth and the Kingdom of God? Nothing as far as I can see. Adoption in the Roman world of the 1st century often occasioned to be a better, more advantageous experience than natural birth, and Paul and the believers of that era new that.

So, to be said adopted as sons, crying Abba, had a very powerful effect at that time. Now, it holds less meaning.

We are urged to walk worthy of our calling (Ephesians 4:1). It's not enough to just call each other and ourselves "saints". We must BE saints.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:48 AM
houston houston is offline
Isaiah 56:4-5


 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SOUTH ZION
Posts: 11,307
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Boo, calvinists, boo.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 06-27-2018, 02:01 AM
votivesoul's Avatar
votivesoul votivesoul is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,478
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by houston View Post
Boo, calvinists, boo.
Some shoes fit. But the door swings both ways.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 06-27-2018, 07:01 AM
consapente89 consapente89 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,242
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by houston View Post
Boo, calvinists, boo.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:04 AM
Evang.Benincasa's Avatar
Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood too


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,250
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Absolutely. The "you're a vile, wretched sinner" doctrine out of the Calvinist paradigm has hurt the Apostolic Church for too long. Redemption is to be redeemed, to be made worthy and accepted in the beloved.

I am a natural born citizen the United States. I have the LEGAL RIGHT to all the rights and privileges my being born here grants to me. I deserve my citizenship by right of birth.

What's different about new birth and the Kingdom of God? Nothing as far as I can see. Adoption in the Roman world of the 1st century often occasioned to be a better, more advantageous experience than natural birth, and Paul and the believers of that era new that.

So, to be said adopted as sons, crying Abba, had a very powerful effect at that time. Now, it holds less meaning.

We are urged to walk worthy of our calling (Ephesians 4:1). It's not enough to just call each other and ourselves "saints". We must BE saints.
Awesome!!!

That’ll preach!

Very good my brother.
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 06-27-2018, 09:49 AM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,279
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

So im not completely understanding the non-sinfulness of the human nature.
I do believe we are able to make choices good or bad.
If it takes Jesus to make us righteous, how then are we not naturally unrighteous without Him? We can chose to do good all of our lives and still be in sin without God.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 06-28-2018, 12:38 AM
votivesoul's Avatar
votivesoul votivesoul is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,478
Re: The Temptation of Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
So im not completely understanding the non-sinfulness of the human nature.
I do believe we are able to make choices good or bad.
If it takes Jesus to make us righteous, how then are we not naturally unrighteous without Him? We can chose to do good all of our lives and still be in sin without God.
If you look at sin as an originally external "thing" that infected the human race upon Adam's disobedience, and became a law within us, it's no different that, in principle to the idea of a bacteria infection that is eventually fatal.

So, if you contracted MRSA or end up with meningitis or pericarditis, you become infected, and those bacteria or virus (as the case may be) are present in you, and they will make you sick, and if not treated by a doctor and the proper medication, you will die.

The same with sin and Christ and His blood. You and I and others are infected with a law of sin that is eventually fatal. We must be treated by Dr. Jesus with His blood, or the infection will kill us.

Just as you cannot cure yourself of your infection, but need the help of a doctor, so, you cannot make yourself righteous without the help of the Lord.

This doesn't mean we cannot make wise decisions to assist ourselves with our health, however. And the same is true spiritually. You can make wise decisions regarding your soul, as much as your body, that will keep you healthy and preserve you blameless at the Lord's coming. They don't make you righteous, but they help to maintain your righteousness.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/

Last edited by votivesoul; 06-28-2018 at 12:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
More temptation than ever before? Azzan Fellowship Hall 9 05-01-2013 02:16 PM
Sin...then temptation? The Matt Fellowship Hall 19 02-01-2012 12:26 PM
I Fell Into Temptation - I Covet Your Prayers. Jacob's Ladder Fellowship Hall 18 08-16-2011 08:01 PM
Temptation poll Timmy Fellowship Hall 36 07-28-2010 09:39 PM
Temptation in Garden about Procreation? Pressing-On Deep Waters 26 01-02-2010 09:36 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.