Do we have to pay tithes?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

My advice would be no need for yet another thread. It was posted here, so therefore it would be easier to deal with it here. Also getting passionate, being truthfully honest doesn't disrespect anyone. If my feelings get hurt, Then I am the one who will ultimately deal with that on my own.

I think I'll listen and post, listen and post. If I get too long, people will lose interest. I'll try to title the posts to indicate which of the issues it addresses, such as tithing money, Melchisedec tithe, Jacob, etc.. We'll see how it goes.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I think I'll listen and post, listen and post. If I get too long, people will lose interest. I'll try to title the posts to indicate which of the issues it addresses, such as tithing money, Melchisedec tithe, Jacob, etc.. We'll see how it goes.

Too long isn't a problem for those who are truly interested. Too long with light blue or yellow font drives people crazy.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

That's what I meant by they had no money that I said earlier. They had weights of worth of trade. But they weren't walking around with knots of cash in their pocket!

Brother . . . I’m shaking my head. You really need to do better. If the Bible says it’s money, what is it?


It’s money!!!!!!!!

It is true that the shekel was a weight. It likely was a weight before it was money. But in Genesis it had already become money. The talent was a weight, but if it was used to represent gold, silver or even copper, it became money. That goes for a lot of modern money. The British pound, I believe the Mexican peso and in Old Testament times, the shekel, the half shekel, (aka bekah) and the gerah, which was the least valuable of the coins used by the Hebrews.

12] And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
[13] He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
[23] And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
[27] And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.
Gen.23

[9] That he may give me the cave of Machpelah, which he hath, which is in the end of his field; for as much money as it is worth he shall give it me for a possession of a buryingplace amongst you.
[13] And he spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the land, saying, But if thou wilt give it, I pray thee, hear me: I will give thee money for the field; take it of me, and I will bury my dead there.
[16] And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver, which he had named in the audience of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant.
Gen.31

[15] Are we not counted of him strangers? for he hath sold us, and hath quite devoured also our money.
Gen.33

[19] And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem's father, for an hundred pieces of money.
Gen.42

[25] Then Joseph commanded to fill their sacks with corn, and to restore every man's money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way: and thus did he unto them.
[27] And as one of them opened his sack to give his ass provender in the inn, he espied his money; for, behold, it was in his sack's mouth.
[28] And he said unto his brethren, My money is restored; and, lo, it is even in my sack: and their heart failed them, and they were afraid, saying one to another, What is this that God hath done unto us?
[35] And it came to pass as they emptied their sacks, that, behold, every man's bundle of money was in his sack: and when both they and their father saw the bundles of money, they were afraid.
Gen.43

[12] And take double money in your hand; and the money that was brought again in the mouth of your sacks, carry it again in your hand; peradventure it was an oversight:
[15] And the men took that present, and they took double money in their hand, and Benjamin; and rose up, and went down to Egypt, and stood before Joseph.
[18] And the men were afraid, because they were brought into Joseph's house; and they said, Because of the money that was returned in our sacks at the first time are we brought in; that he may seek occasion against us, and fall upon us, and take us for bondmen, and our asses.
[21] And it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight: and we have brought it again in our hand.
[22] And other money have we brought down in our hands to buy food: we cannot tell who put our money in our sacks.
[23] And he said, Peace be to you, fear not: your God, and the God of your father, hath given you treasure in your sacks: I had your money. And he brought Simeon out unto them.
Gen.44

[1] And he commanded the steward of his house, saying, Fill the men's sacks with food, as much as they can carry, and put every man's money in his sack's mouth.
[2] And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money. And he did according to the word that Joseph had spoken.
[8] Behold, the money, which we found in our sacks' mouths, we brought again unto thee out of the land of Canaan: how then should we steal out of thy lord's house silver or gold?
Gen.47

[14] And Joseph gathered up all the money that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn which they bought: and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh's house.
[15] And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.
[16] And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail.
[18] When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies, and our lands:

These are the mentions of money that occur in the book of Genesis. Genesis holds the distinction of having more mentions of money than any other book of the Bible, if I recall correctly. I believe there are more mentions of money in Genesis than there are in all books of the New Testament combined. It is absolutely untrue that they had no money. Perhaps born of the belief that most people have, that if they had money, God would have made, or at least allowed the tithe to be money.

Can we agree that they had money in Genesis?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Too long isn't a problem for those who are truly interested. Too long with light blue or yellow font drives people crazy.

It seems that I recall something to that effect. However, I have repented, and have received correction and done penance, and I am looking forward to getting out of purgatory, in a few thousand years.

I don't want anybody going blind on my account.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Please show one scripture where God says we can now eat shrimp, or wear linen and wool together.

The scripture says with shrimp and scavengers "it shall be an abomination to you." He didn't say it was a "abomination to Him". Everything in Deuteronomy 22 was Cannanite practices. But verse 5 He says "it's an abomination unto Him." That's forever. Just as whatever He says is holy is holy forever!

You missed the point or dodged it. But it is irrelevant. The holy tithe was from food products produced in the land of Israel, not 20th century Gentil fiat currency

And Catholics don't give, they pay their way out of purgatory and hell. Big difference.

Do some research on when tithing appeared in the churches.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...title-dbsj.pdf

This is a good article EB. It's very informative and seems to strike a good balance.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother . . . I’m shaking my head. You really need to do better. If the Bible says it’s money, what is it?


It’s money!!!!!!!!

It is true that the shekel was a weight. It likely was a weight before it was money. But in Genesis it had already become money. The talent was a weight, but if it was used to represent gold, silver or even copper, it became money. That goes for a lot of modern money. The British pound, I believe the Mexican peso and in Old Testament times, the shekel, the half shekel, (aka bekah) and the gerah, which was the least valuable of the coins used by the Hebrews.

12] And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
[13] He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
[23] And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
[27] And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.
Gen.23

[9] That he may give me the cave of Machpelah, which he hath, which is in the end of his field; for as much money as it is worth he shall give it me for a possession of a buryingplace amongst you.
[13] And he spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the land, saying, But if thou wilt give it, I pray thee, hear me: I will give thee money for the field; take it of me, and I will bury my dead there.
[16] And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver, which he had named in the audience of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant.
Gen.31

[15] Are we not counted of him strangers? for he hath sold us, and hath quite devoured also our money.
Gen.33

[19] And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem's father, for an hundred pieces of money.
Gen.42

[25] Then Joseph commanded to fill their sacks with corn, and to restore every man's money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way: and thus did he unto them.
[27] And as one of them opened his sack to give his ass provender in the inn, he espied his money; for, behold, it was in his sack's mouth.
[28] And he said unto his brethren, My money is restored; and, lo, it is even in my sack: and their heart failed them, and they were afraid, saying one to another, What is this that God hath done unto us?
[35] And it came to pass as they emptied their sacks, that, behold, every man's bundle of money was in his sack: and when both they and their father saw the bundles of money, they were afraid.
Gen.43

[12] And take double money in your hand; and the money that was brought again in the mouth of your sacks, carry it again in your hand; peradventure it was an oversight:
[15] And the men took that present, and they took double money in their hand, and Benjamin; and rose up, and went down to Egypt, and stood before Joseph.
[18] And the men were afraid, because they were brought into Joseph's house; and they said, Because of the money that was returned in our sacks at the first time are we brought in; that he may seek occasion against us, and fall upon us, and take us for bondmen, and our asses.
[21] And it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight: and we have brought it again in our hand.
[22] And other money have we brought down in our hands to buy food: we cannot tell who put our money in our sacks.
[23] And he said, Peace be to you, fear not: your God, and the God of your father, hath given you treasure in your sacks: I had your money. And he brought Simeon out unto them.
Gen.44

[1] And he commanded the steward of his house, saying, Fill the men's sacks with food, as much as they can carry, and put every man's money in his sack's mouth.
[2] And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money. And he did according to the word that Joseph had spoken.
[8] Behold, the money, which we found in our sacks' mouths, we brought again unto thee out of the land of Canaan: how then should we steal out of thy lord's house silver or gold?
Gen.47

[14] And Joseph gathered up all the money that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn which they bought: and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh's house.
[15] And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.
[16] And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail.
[18] When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies, and our lands:

These are the mentions of money that occur in the book of Genesis. Genesis holds the distinction of having more mentions of money than any other book of the Bible, if I recall correctly. I believe there are more mentions of money in Genesis than there are in all books of the New Testament combined. It is absolutely untrue that they had no money. Perhaps born of the belief that most people have, that if they had money, God would have made, or at least allowed the tithe to be money.

Can we agree that they had money in Genesis?

Again what you think "money" is isn't what they thought money was. The Hebrew word actually means again weight on any precious metal, silver, gold, brass, iron. Wampum is money, but it was polished sea shells. Just because we recognized an English word we cannot give it a 17th to 21st century meaning based on what we understand today. Totally different monetary system, which has nothing to do with us today. You handle promissory notes which are supposedly able to be redeemed with silver, or gold. Yet, they are only worth what everyone agrees they are worth.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Again what you think "money" is isn't what they thought money was. The Hebrew word actually means again weight on any precious metal, silver, gold, brass, iron. Wampum is money, but it was polished sea shells. Just because we recognized an English word we cannot give it a 17th to 21st century meaning based on what we understand today. Totally different monetary system, which has nothing to do with us today. You handle promissory notes which are supposedly able to be redeemed with silver, or gold. Yet, they are only worth what everyone agrees they are worth.

I understand EB. We have fiat money, they had the real thing. There have been coins found, shekels specifically, that go way back into the Old Testament times.

It is not money like we know it. It wasn't paper money, but if the Bible says it is money, can we agree that it is money?

I have been where they used whales teeth for money. I get it. Nevertheless, forty two times the book of Genesis refers to money. They established the meaning of money before we were twinkles in our daddy's eyes.

I have read that the Egyptians were the first to have the shekel. Maybe it's true. Call it what you want, but the Bible calls it money.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I understand EB. We have fiat money, they had the real thing. There have been coins found, shekels specifically, that go way back into the Old Testament times.

It is not money like we know it. It wasn't paper money, but if the Bible says it is money, can we agree that it is money?

I have been where they used whales teeth for money. I get it. Nevertheless, forty two times the book of Genesis refers to money. They established the meaning of money before we were twinkles in our daddy's eyes.

I have read that the Egyptians were the first to have the shekel. Maybe it's true. Call it what you want, but the Bible calls it money.

Bro, the Hebrew word for the English word which is "interpreted" as MONEY means silver, or silvery, and in the LXX it is ἀργύριον which means a piece of silver. Again it is a shekel weight, a weight, nothing more nothing less. It wasn't coins, it wasn't Krugerrands, or Gold American Eagles. What you are stuck on is the English word "money" so you equate it to the stuff you have in your wallet. Everything was measurements, from wine, to sheep, to wheat, to barley, to fish, and finally precious metals, gold, silver, brass, and iron. Their system was different from what we have today, and therefore when someone states that the ancients used wine, milk, and honey as currency, they are referring to the weight and measures of those products. Hence we can understand the meaning of a land FLOWING with milk and MONEY.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, the Hebrew word for the English word which is "interpreted" as MONEY means silver, or silvery, and in the LXX it is ἀργύριον which means a piece of silver. Again it is a shekel weight, a weight, nothing more nothing less. It wasn't coins, it wasn't Krugerrands, or Gold American Eagles. What you are stuck on is the English word "money" so you equate it to the stuff you have in your wallet. Everything was measurements, from wine, to sheep, to wheat, to barley, to fish, and finally precious metals, gold, silver, brass, and iron. Their system was different from what we have today, and therefore when someone states that the ancients used wine, milk, and honey as currency, they are referring to the weight and measures of those products. Hence we can understand the meaning of a land FLOWING with milk and MONEY.

Shekel coins date back approximately 4400 years.