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[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In Galatians, Paul refers to the "Jerusalem" that is above, saying that she is "free". He then states she is the "mother of us all". Surely this "mother" of us believers, is the Church, i.e. Christ's Bride?

We who have been given new life through the Spirit, and are continuing in the Word of our Savior as His disciples, have been set free, and are therefore, free indeed.

This again, for me, makes Paul's reference in Galatians regarding Jerusalem that is above, a marker for being the Church.

In Ephesians, Paul calls the church the habitation of God through the Spirit. Indeed, we are called the very house of God Himself!

Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless [i.e. orphans], I will come to you".

He also said "we will come to you", referring to both Himself and the Father.

Jesus, being "With us is God", i.e. Emmanuel, and the Father being the very God who is with us through Incarnation and Sonship, first in Christ, then in us, since Pentecost until now, would seem to indicate that "Christ in us, the hope of glory" means that since Jesus is Emmanuel, and His Spirit has been given to us, and has adopted us, by receiving the Spirit of God's Son, we receive the Spirit of Emmanuel, or "With us is God".

This means, even as God the Father was in Christ, so now Christ is in us, and we have therefore received fullness of the Godhead, just as it was in Christ bodily, so now it resides in the Body of Christ.

So, I would venture to argue that Revelations 21:1-3 is not a future fulfillment, but rather, a settled upon reality given to John in a vision.

The tabernacle of God, therefore, was raised up on Pentecost, circa 33AD. Surely it is the very tabernacle of David, which was fallen, but brought back by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are the holy city, and as Mike pointed out, we are set upon a hill.

We are, therefore, the Light of the World. So let us walk in the light, as He is in the Light.

I think if the Church as a whole, could get this, and would separate itself from the entanglements of the world, the global impact upon the hearts of all people everywhere would be astonishing.

I find this very interesting. So if I may just concisely say the gist of what you are saying is that the church (which we are a part of) IS the New Jerusalem.

So, in the next scripture in Rev. 21 says that there will be no more sorrow, death,pain, and the former things are passed away.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Do I understand you correctly when you believe that this is figurative and not literal?

Personally, I believe this scripture has both a literal and figurative fulfillment. I don't think we have seen the physical/literal fulfillment of it yet, although I could understand that there is a sense of figurative fulfillment of it since the DOP.

Could you clarify a bit more? Thanks!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I find this very interesting. So if I may just concisely say the gist of what you are saying is that the church (which we are a part of) IS the New Jerusalem.

So, in the next scripture in Rev. 21 says that there will be no more sorrow, death,pain, and the former things are passed away.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Do I understand you correctly when you believe that this is figurative and not literal?

Personally, I believe this scripture has both a literal and figurative fulfillment. I don't think we have seen the physical/literal fulfillment of it yet, although I could understand that there is a sense of figurative fulfillment of it since the DOP.

Could you clarify a bit more? Thanks!

Sister, think of this...

Revelation 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

In light of this...

2 Corinthians 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. (17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The plain teaching of the bible interprets the visionary signs of Revelation. Bible interprets Bible.

Notice the ALL in verse 17.

Paul said the first is natural and the last is spiritual. This doesn't end with a natural city. It ends with a spiritual reality. A reality that existed before there even was an earth.

If you read the details of the city, it speaks of things that naturally cannot exist. Gates of pearl. Yes, God could make a pearl that big to use as a gate, but He could also make a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns. Revelation is signs, according to the first verse in the book.

And transparent gold? If 99.999% pure gold is opaque, .001% impurity removed is not going to make it transparent.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sister, think of this...

Revelation 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

In light of this...

2 Corinthians 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. (17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The plain teaching of the bible interprets the visionary signs of Revelation. Bible interprets Bible.

Notice the ALL in verse 17.

Paul said the first is natural and the last is spiritual. This doesn't end with a natural city. It ends with a spiritual reality. A reality that existed before there even was an earth.

If you read the details of the city, it speaks of things that naturally cannot exist. Gates of pearl. Yes, God could make a pearl that big to use as a gate, but He could also make a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns. Revelation is signs, according to the first verse in the book.

And transparent gold? If 99.999% pure gold is opaque, .001% impurity removed is not going to make it transparent.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded "Revelation is signs according to the first verse in the book"

I agree with you that if there is a natural application, there must also be a spiritual.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded "Revelation is signs according to the first verse in the book"

Sure!

I believe the emblems all through Revelation are to be spiritually interpreted, and not literally. Revelation begins by explaining that very truth.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The term "signified" means betokened or symbolized. It is through the use of signs that Revelation relates to us the manifestation of Jesus Christ. Its SIGN-IFIED. To signify is to give a sign and to indicate . It is to betoken. So what we are told right up front is that the visions of the Book of Revelation are symbols of actualities.
Agabus SIGNIFIED through the Spirit about trouble coming.

Acts 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

What did Agabus do in order for the Bible to say that he "signified" future events? Let us look elsewhere in the Bible to see if Agabus did anything similar to SYMBOLIZING something. The same prophet is later spoken about in Acts 21 and we read that he once again SYMBOLIZED something about Paul, and in doing so he used SYMBOLS of Paul's girdle to indicate bondage Paul would enter into in Jerusalem.

Acts 21:10-11 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Obviously the SIGNIFYING in Acts 11:28 was similar in his use of foretelling something through SIGNS as he foretold Paul's bondage by binding Paul's hands and feet with his girdle, for this is how Agabus ministered.

Some say that this approach to Revelation causes one to believe that there is no coming mark of the beast, and that it is an error of spiritualizing everything away. They feel that if we do not believe in a literal stamp or mark on the literal hand or forehead of a person, then we do not believe what the Bible says. But the error of their thinking is that they are totally unaware of the symbolism taken from the Old Testament for the mark. If we were to use their reasoning when looking at the Bible, we would have to believe that the mountains literally sprouted legs like rams, and skipped across the territories according to the Psalms. That is taking things literally. But of course we are not meant to take that Psalm's reference to mountains and hills skipping to be literal. So the argument that we are to take things literally unless specified to do otherwise is simply manifesting ignorance of biblical literature.

Don't let someone gloss over these things and tell you that it is erroneous spiritualizing away of the truth to say that Revelation, for example, is not symbolic. It is not spiritualizing anything away when you are careful to look to the BIBLE ALONE AND ITSELF to understand the symbols used in Revelation.

Of course the Bible is to be taken literally at times. But we do not choose which is literal and which is allegorical. The Bible does that itself. In the book of Revelation, where we are told that the revelation was SIGNIFIED when it was given. Just as Agabus signified Paul's bondage using the symbols of his girdle (Rome would not bind Paul with his girdle!), Revelation is full of symbols. And some have stated we should by default take Revelation literally, and only take Revelation symbolically when it says it is symbolic. If that were the case then we should literally believe that Jesus turned into a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns, because the Revelation does not say "THIS IS SYMBOLIC OF JESUS OUR PASSOVER." But the truth is that the Revelation should foremost be taken symbolically EXCEPT for the instances in which the symbols are explicitly explained, because we are told to read it as such in the very first verse of the book.

For example:

Revelation 17:9-10 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Above, the Revelation distinctly interprets for us.

Also, here:

Revelation 21:9-10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

The SYMBOL of the City descending out of Heaven is interpreted explicitly as the BRIDE.. the Lamb's wife. That is the Church!

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ .

I agree with you that if there is a natural application, there must also be a spiritual.

[/quote]

What I meant was the natural applications are gone since the cross, and only spiritual applications occur now.

[KeptByTheWord]

Bro. Blume, it's late, I'll get back with you tomorrow Thanks for the response!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Bro. Blume, it's late, I'll get back with you tomorrow Thanks for the response!

Blessings!

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I find this very interesting. So if I may just concisely say the gist of what you are saying is that the church (which we are a part of) IS the New Jerusalem.

So, in the next scripture in Rev. 21 says that there will be no more sorrow, death,pain, and the former things are passed away.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Do I understand you correctly when you believe that this is figurative and not literal?

Personally, I believe this scripture has both a literal and figurative fulfillment. I don't think we have seen the physical/literal fulfillment of it yet, although I could understand that there is a sense of figurative fulfillment of it since the DOP.

Could you clarify a bit more? Thanks!

In God's presence there is fullness of joy. The utter totality of all that joy is, is found in the presence of God. God dwells in us now, it's a present reality. His holy habitation is the church. We experience the presence of God, right now!

But for some reason we don't seem to experience this totality of joy. Why not?

The flesh. The earthly tabernacle of our mortal bodies, and the law of sin present in them, along with all the rest of the wickedness in the world, continually mingles with and interferes with the fullness of joy we could otherwise experience.

So, as Revelation comes to a close, there will be a literal fulfillment of the wiping away of every tear, as the flesh of our members, the law of sin in our flesh, and all the wickedness that's currently in the world is completely eradicated, so that we are forever, unencumbered, in the presence of God.

This however, doesn't indicate that tabernacling of God with humanity isn't fulfilled yet, just because the wiping away of tears, and etc., is yet to occur.

Notwithstanding, I bet if you could call upon your own experience, you could draw for it a time of sorrow, pain, or loss, and remember that, through it all, you found a place in the presence of God that brought such a joy that whatever was happening in your life that was hurting you, went completely by the wayside for as long as the experience in the Spirit lasted.

Am I right?

This is merely the foretaste of glory divine!

So, to sum:

God made His tabernacle to be with men ever since the Incarnation and Redemption brought to the world at Pentecost. There is no future fulfillment of this.

But experiencing this reality in perfect, eternal form, is not yet complete, or fulfilled, until we, as the church, experience the redemption of our bodies in the Resurrection, and enter into the heavens forever.

[votivesoul]

KBTW,

I don't try too often to hash it out with anyone over eschatology or things in the Bible that point toward Last Things, as Revelation, for example, so clearly does.

But I will say this, and by saying it, I of course, at this stage, believe I'm right, or else I wouldn't be saying it!

But I digress...

I believe Revelation has to be approached according to its genre. As I'm sure you realize, the Greek word for Revelation is, after Anglicalization "Apocalypse".

It is important for us to understand that apart from being a word that means "to unveil, or disclose", Apocalypse is actually a specific kind of literature present and popular in the centuries leading up to the birth of Jesus, and for some time afterward.

Some canonical examples apart from Revelation include:

- Daniel
- Zechariah
- Ezekiel

There are also other apocalypses that are not found in the canon of Holy Scripture, such as 1 Enoch and 2 Esdras. Some of these books are found in various apocrypha. Others can be found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The point is that, most if not all of these books all feature very specific characteristics.

There is the "righteous man" who, on account of some indicated "special-ness" begins to receive revelations of God and communications from the heavenlies, often in the form of an angel, who acts as constant guide.

There is the presentation of the cosmic struggle between good and evil.

There is usually a veiled reference to who is and who is not really the people of God.

There is an explanation for why evil is allowed to triumph, especially against the people who truly are of, and belong to, God, even as it is shown that that triumph is temporary.

There is the use of symbolism, much of it animalistic or at least naturalistic, and pertinent to the understanding of the intended audience.

There is the command to write or transcribe the visions, so the revelations and communications can be disseminated among the intended audience.

And such like.

Now, this being the case, Revelation is no different. So let me ask, when John sees that a door to heaven is open, and hears, in Revelation 4:1, "...come up here and I will show you that which must occur" (my paraphrase), is any of the things he sees events taking place on earth?

All that he sees from that point forward, unless otherwise specifically stipulated, occurs in "heaven", which John saw by going up, into, and through the door that was opened.

This is really important! John is no longer looking at the world around him from Patmos and beyond the Sea. He is seeing something else altogether.

This to me, means that Revelation is not supposed to be interpreted per se. I don't think it serves anyone well to try and say what they think any of part of the entire vision is supposed to refer to in the "real world". We are all likely wrong way too many times.

The blessing in the beginning of Revelation (1:3) is not "blessed is he who discovers the cipher to figuring out all the hidden meanings of this text, so he can uncover all the correct ways to interpret every vision the author experienced and written herein, so he can explain the true meaning of this book to others".

Rather the blessing is in reading or hearing and keeping or guarding the words of John's prophecy, a much simpler blessing than trying to untie all the knots.

So, going back to John's visions taking place in heaven, the point of them is not so much to try and point to a place on our timeline and say "That's when this part of Revelation occurred/will occur, and this is what it means". The point is to see the broader picture of the vast, universal, cosmic scope of God's creation and how He has intervened in the affairs of men in order to save it from the evil that invaded and overcame it so long ago through the actions of the Dragon. The struggle then is told in these grand, sweeping visions that encompass a reality to large to actually grasp (I mean, who can conceive of an angel destroying a third of the Sun, or a valley filled six feet deep by human blood?).

It's supposed to be a book about hope. But when it's twisted this way and that way in order to fit a presumed eschatological framework, it becomes a piece of propaganda for why I'm right and you're wrong.

This doesn't mean that attempting to understand the book better, even in a specific context is wrong or not called for. It just means doing that isn't the point of the book.

The Revelation is to reveal Jesus Christ. Everything in the tome points back to something about Him. Jesus is everything we think of Him as being, i.e. Lord, Savior, Rock, Messiah, and etc.

But He is also the centerpiece and linchpin to the entire creative history of all that was, all that is, and all that is to come. He isn't just King of the Jews, or what have you.

He is Master of the entire known universe. He transcends heaven and earth, the Sun, the Moon, all the Stars, all the angels of Heaven, and etc. Revelation is trying to reveal that to us, so we can see in Him, that all things are under His feet and nothing is outside of His control or purview, especially when life hurts, makes no sense, and all it seems we do is suffer. This means, as an apocalypse, Revelation, fitting perfectly into the genre, shows us that no matter the wickedness in the world, no matter the horror and heartbreak, no matter the power of sin, or the attacks of the Dragon against God and His established order, including His redeemed people, we come out on top, triumphant.

And for me, that's a much more important reason to read and hear the words of John's prophecy. Dissecting them to death to try and make everything fit and work and come out in favor of one's pet views on End Times isn't the point or purpose. And I think, a waste of time. Revelation reveals something WAY BIGGER and MORE URGENT. It shows us that this great, immense, practically unknownable INFINITE, ETERNAL God has already worked everything out for you, no matter what comes undone around you; because of Jesus Christ, even if the very heaven above you should close upon itself like a scroll, you're going to be okay. You're going to make it. You're going to win.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

KBTW,

I don't try too often to hash it out with anyone over eschatology or things in the Bible that point toward Last Things, as Revelation, for example, so clearly does.

But I will say this, and by saying it, I of course, at this stage, believe I'm right, or else I wouldn't be saying it!

But I digress...

I believe Revelation has to be approached according to its genre. As I'm sure you realize, the Greek word for Revelation is, after Anglicalization "Apocalypse".

It is important for us to understand that apart from being a word that means "to unveil, or disclose", Apocalypse is actually a specific kind of literature present and popular in the centuries leading up to the birth of Jesus, and for some time afterward.

Some canonical examples apart from Revelation include:

- Daniel
- Zechariah
- Ezekiel

There are also other apocalypses that are not found in the canon of Holy Scripture, such as 1 Enoch and 2 Esdras. Some of these books are found in various apocrypha. Others can be found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The point is that, most if not all of these books all feature very specific characteristics.

There is the "righteous man" who, on account of some indicated "special-ness" begins to receive revelations of God and communications from the heavenlies, often in the form of an angel, who acts as constant guide.

There is the presentation of the cosmic struggle between good and evil.

There is usually a veiled reference to who is and who is not really the people of God.

There is an explanation for why evil is allowed to triumph, especially against the people who truly are of, and belong to, God, even as it is shown that that triumph is temporary.

There is the use of symbolism, much of it animalistic or at least naturalistic, and pertinent to the understanding of the intended audience.

There is the command to write or transcribe the visions, so the revelations and communications can be disseminated among the intended audience.

And such like.

Now, this being the case, Revelation is no different. So let me ask, when John sees that a door to heaven is open, and hears, in Revelation 4:1, "...come up here and I will show you that which must occur" (my paraphrase), is any of the things he sees events taking place on earth?

All that he sees from that point forward, unless otherwise specifically stipulated, occurs in "heaven", which John saw by going up, into, and through the door that was opened.

This is really important! John is no longer looking at the world around him from Patmos and beyond the Sea. He is seeing something else altogether.

This to me, means that Revelation is not supposed to be interpreted per se. I don't think it serves anyone well to try and say what they think any of part of the entire vision is supposed to refer to in the "real world". We are all likely wrong way too many times.

The blessing in the beginning of Revelation (1:3) is not "blessed is he who discovers the cipher to figuring out all the hidden meanings of this text, so he can uncover all the correct ways to interpret every vision the author experienced and written herein, so he can explain the true meaning of this book to others".

Rather the blessing is in reading or hearing and keeping or guarding the words of John's prophecy, a much simpler blessing than trying to untie all the knots.

So, going back to John's visions taking place in heaven, the point of them is not so much to try and point to a place on our timeline and say "That's when this part of Revelation occurred/will occur, and this is what it means". The point is to see the broader picture of the vast, universal, cosmic scope of God's creation and how He has intervened in the affairs of men in order to save it from the evil that invaded and overcame it so long ago through the actions of the Dragon. The struggle then is told in these grand, sweeping visions that encompass a reality to large to actually grasp (I mean, who can conceive of an angel destroying a third of the Sun, or a valley filled six feet deep by human blood?).

It's supposed to be a book about hope. But when it's twisted this way and that way in order to fit a presumed eschatological framework, it becomes a piece of propaganda for why I'm right and you're wrong.

This doesn't mean that attempting to understand the book better, even in a specific context is wrong or not called for. It just means doing that isn't the point of the book.

The Revelation is to reveal Jesus Christ. Everything in the tome points back to something about Him. Jesus is everything we think of Him as being, i.e. Lord, Savior, Rock, Messiah, and etc.

But He is also the centerpiece and linchpin to the entire creative history of all that was, all that is, and all that is to come. He isn't just King of the Jews, or what have you.

He is Master of the entire known universe. He transcends heaven and earth, the Sun, the Moon, all the Stars, all the angels of Heaven, and etc. Revelation is trying to reveal that to us, so we can see in Him, that all things are under His feet and nothing is outside of His control or purview, especially when life hurts, makes no sense, and all it seems we do is suffer. This means, as an apocalypse, Revelation, fitting perfectly into the genre, shows us that no matter the wickedness in the world, no matter the horror and heartbreak, no matter the power of sin, or the attacks of the Dragon against God and His established order, including His redeemed people, we come out on top, triumphant.

And for me, that's a much more important reason to read and hear the words of John's prophecy. Dissecting them to death to try and make everything fit and work and come out in favor of one's pet views on End Times isn't the point or purpose. And I think, a waste of time. Revelation reveals something WAY BIGGER and MORE URGENT. It shows us that this great, immense, practically unknownable INFINITE, ETERNAL God has already worked everything out for you, no matter what comes undone around you; because of Jesus Christ, even if the very heaven above you should close upon itself like a scroll, you're going to be okay. You're going to make it. You're going to win.

That is some good stuff.

[KeptByTheWord]

Wow, Bro. Blume and Bro. Votive... thank you so much for taking the time to elucidate more clearly what Revelation signifies... thank you Bro. Blume for sharing that illustration about Agabus and how he signified with a physical picture that was not literal, but figurative.

I went back today and started in the very first chapter of Revelation. I want to read it again to have it fresh in my mind as we discuss. Today was a busy day, and I have been thinking about our discussion as I went about my day.

One thing that spoke to me, even as I read this morning, was that the message was urgent, and that Jesus was going to do what He says, quickly... It is safe to say that 2000 years later is not acting "quickly", although I do know that time can be irrelevant to the Lord.

For years I have sat on the fence about this book, wondering ... was it written for the people then... or for us now? Or for us both somehow?

I really appreciate what you said Bro. V about Revelation being all about Jesus, and each event in heaven taking place in some way that tells a story about a work Jesus has done on earth.

I am still considering, and chewing on it all. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I hope to continue the discussion, possibly next week. This weekend will be a busy one for me.