Why all the circles?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Paul spoke in 1 Cor. 10 of how our fathers were "baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea". This corresponds with being baptised into Christ. Jesus said we must be born of water and spirit. The sea and the cloud were types of water baptism and receiving the Spirit. If we have been baptised into Christ, ie born again (born of water and spirit) we have put on Christ.

No one is saying that water baptism is not necessary, what I find significant though is how so many quote John 3:5 in their attempt to prove water baptism is part of the "plan of salvation", when Christ gave that in answer to Nicodemus question of entering his mothers womb again, and went right into detail of birth of the spirit. Further Christ wrapped up his conversation with, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the son of man be lifted up that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life".
The question I have ask and seems to be avoided is, "just what did the Jews have to do in order to be healed of the serpents bite other than look and believe?"
You bet I believe my salvation is in full effect when I looked to the cross in faith. And in direct response to that I obey Christ command to be baptized. Just as circumcision to the Jew did not save them, without circumcision they were lost. Thus "baptism doth now also save us", "but not because we are putting away the filth of the flesh, but it is our declaration of a clean conscious before God". Scripture gives us several reasons to be baptized, for the remission of sins, being buried with Christ as a sign of walking in newness of life, as an answer to God of a clean conscious, take your pick.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

No one is saying that water baptism is not necessary, what I find significant though is how so many quote John 3:5 in their attempt to prove water baptism is part of the "plan of salvation", when Christ gave that in answer to Nicodemus question of entering his mothers womb again, and went right into detail of birth of the spirit. Further Christ wrapped up his conversation with, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the son of man be lifted up that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life".
The question I have ask and seems to be avoided is, "just what did the Jews have to do in order to be healed of the serpents bite other than look and believe?"
You bet I believe my salvation is in full effect when I looked to the cross in faith. And in direct response to that I obey Christ command to be baptized. Just as circumcision to the Jew did not save them, without circumcision they were lost. Thus "baptism doth now also save us", "but not because we are putting away the filth of the flesh, but it is our declaration of a clean conscious before God". Scripture gives us several reasons to be baptized, for the remission of sins, being buried with Christ as a sign of walking in newness of life, as an answer to God of a clean conscious, take your pick.

Beloved, when the Jews looked upon the serpent, that DID NOT take away the fact that they
were bitten; they received MERCY so that they would not receive the righteous judgment,
which is death. That was only a "temporary fix", even as the High Priest performed his duty
"...in the course of his order..." once a year.

The sacrifice on the cross works in them that look upon it in the same manner; to bestow
mercy, and "...mercy rejoices against judgment." Mercy keeps one until that person comes
to the knowledge of truth and receives the promise of everlasting life: which is Grace.
Anything less is believing another gospel.

On the other hand, baptism "...in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
..." ERASES all sins. So there remains no more memory of sin before God.

[Esaias]

How does a person "look upon Jesus"?

BIBLICALLY?

It cannot mean "consider" him or his death, etc for then one would merely have to read about or hear about the cross and one would automatically be saved in that act alone. Faith would be irrelevant.

So what does it mean?

Does it mean to have faith in him?

So that belief results in salvation? Sure! And belief DOES result in salvation. Belief is not mere intellectual assent, but it involves ACTION. Abraham believed God... not just as a thought but as a decision and a course if action.

"Trusting in Jesus" is elsewhere described as calling on His name. And according to Paul, that takes place in baptism.

Can we call upon him prior? Sure. I did. And within 3 weeks God not only gave me the Holy Ghost but someone across my path who knew and believed Acts 2:38. And thus I was born again, born of water and spirit. I believed, and God sent salvation to me.

He sent his Word, and healed me.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How does a person "look upon Jesus"?
BIBLICALLY?
It cannot mean "consider" him or his death, etc for then one would merely have to read about or hear about the cross and one would automatically be saved in that act alone. Faith would be irrelevant.
So what does it mean?
Does it mean to have faith in him?
So that belief results in salvation? Sure! And belief DOES result in salvation. Belief is not mere intellectual assent, but it involves ACTION. Abraham believed God... not just as a thought but as a decision and a course if action.
"Trusting in Jesus" is elsewhere described as calling on His name. And according to Paul, that takes place in baptism.
Can we call upon him prior? Sure. I did. And within 3 weeks God not only gave me the Holy Ghost but someone across my path who knew and believed Acts 2:38. And thus I was born again, born of water and spirit. I believed, and God sent salvation to me.
He sent his Word, and healed me.

EXACTLY! So the PROMISE was fulfilled in you and for you: "Whosoever shall
call upon the Name of the Lord SHALL BE saved."

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

EXACTLY! So the PROMISE was fulfilled in you and for you: "Whosoever shall
call upon the Name of the Lord SHALL BE saved."

Right! If you have truly called upon the Lord in faith, you will be willing to do whatever He asks you to do, and your belief in the Lord will be directly connected to the action that you because of that belief!

Others have used this example before, but it is pertinent to this discussion - if you are told the house you are in is on fire, just believing that the house is on fire isn't enough to save you from the fire... you must get up and do something - leave the house - if you really believe it to be on fire. Whenever you believe something, there is a coordinating action that takes place. Just believing the house is on fire is not enough to save you. Action is required!

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How does a person "look upon Jesus"?
BIBLICALLY?
It cannot mean "consider" him or his death, etc for then one would merely have to read about or hear about the cross and one would automatically be saved in that act alone. Faith would be irrelevant.
So what does it mean?
Does it mean to have faith in him?

So that belief results in salvation? Sure! And belief DOES result in salvation. Belief is not mere intellectual assent, but it involves ACTION. Abraham believed God... not just as a thought but as a decision and a course if action.

"Trusting in Jesus" is elsewhere described as calling on His name. And according to Paul, that takes place in baptism.

Can we call upon him prior? Sure. I did. And within 3 weeks God not only gave me the Holy Ghost but someone across my path who knew and believed Acts 2:38. And thus I was born again, born of water and spirit. I believed, and God sent salvation to me.
He sent his Word, and healed me.

Such a sad commentary, that you believed, but feel you were not saved until three weeks later. You or someone else has quoted from the Old Testament how the nation of Israel were baptized unto Moses through the Red Sea, and say they were saved. And they were, yet after all that God came down and almost destroyed them, because they had not been circumcised.
The under lying point to that is first they were the children of God even while they were in Egypt. And just as they were, we are required to obey grow in God as we continue our walk with God, including baptism etc.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Such a sad commentary, that you believed, but feel you were not saved until three weeks later. You or someone else has quoted from the Old Testament how the nation of Israel were baptized unto Moses through the Red Sea, and say they were saved. And they were, yet after all that God came down and almost destroyed them, because they had not been circumcised.
The under lying point to that is first they were the children of God even while they were in Egypt. And just as they were, we are required to obey grow in God as we continue our walk with God, including baptism etc.

Beloved, you are believing a scripture that is often misquoted by many believers; that is,
SOLELY believing in God. That is not a saving faith: rather we are called to BELIEVE GOD...
that means believe in His promise. "Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was counted
unto him for righteousness." You see, Abraham believed in God's promise that he would
beget a son!

"fOR WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM: FOR HE THAT COMES TO GOD MUST
BELIEVE THAT HE IS, AND THAT HE IS A REWARDER OF THEM THAT DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM."

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

You see, Abraham believed in God's promise that he would beget a son!

...yet he needed a fleece and so was struck dumb until Isaac's delivery, begat Ishmael--just in case God needed a little earthly help--and then finally begat Isaac, which means "laughter." (at God, basically.) I'm just lobbing grenades here, but I've always wondered how to reconcile these. It doesn't seem appropriate to accuse Abe of being double minded, but Scripture seems to do just that.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

...yet he needed a fleece and so was struck dumb until Isaac's delivery, begat Ishmael--just in case God needed a little earthly help--and then finally begat Isaac, which means "laughter." (at God, basically.) I'm just lobbing grenades here, but I've always wondered how to reconcile these. It doesn't seem appropriate to accuse Abe of being double minded, but Scripture seems to do just that.

Re-read the scripture: Abram did not laugh "at God". He had already begotten Ismael:
no, Abram laughed at the thought of him begetting and Sarái bearing a child at their age.
If Abram had a "weak moment of faith", it was due to Sarái's influence. She asked him t
o go into Hagar, her servant.
Listen and understand: It was Sarái who doubted her ability to bear a child; however, she
BELIEVED Abram could conceive a son. Else, why would she ask him to go in to Hagar!

[shazeep]

hmm, well, i had the Bible memorized at one time, but that was...half my life ago now lol--but i thot it was Sarah who laughed...anyway, better to keep her out of this for now, to avoid clouding, maybe. I just never ascribed crises of faith to Abraham; but that is the only way i can see to resolve the passage myself.