QUESTION: Did This UPC pastor Steal Money from the church?? you decide

[Theresa]

Originally Posted by CC1

JTullock,

This is always a difficult situaton. On the one hand I think pastors need accountibility. It protects both them and the church.

Pastors need to realize that they are human and their expertise should be in pastoring, reaching souls, etc not in business. Financial accountibility protects them from good intentions but bad judgement harming the church financially. (ie wild investment schemes).

So financial accountibility protects both the upright just pastor and the church pastored by one who is not so upright and just.

On the other hand I do not think a church board shoult "run" a church and oppose or second guess what the pastor wants to do unless it is clear folly.I see the board, trustees, admin, or CFO, etc as checks and balances to make sure the pastor has accountibility and a sounding board.

Then you'd just have a board making "investments"

It should be a pastor, a board, a finance guy and an OUTSIDE, independent accountant.

Thats how it is, kinda, anywhere. Someone who takes the money, someone to count it, someone else to verify that - someone else to disperse funds - someone else who has access to the records of said dispersements - and an outside accountant to audit the transactions.

Its not rocket science

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Theresa

Then you'd just have a board making "investments"

It should be a pastor, a board, a finance guy and an OUTSIDE, independent accountant.

Thats how it is, kinda, anywhere. Someone who takes the money, someone to count it, someone else to verify that - someone else to disperse funds - someone else who has access to the records of said dispersements - and an outside accountant to audit the transactions.

Its not rocket science

I agree when it comes to investments and the such. I was thinking in terms of things like remodeling and building plans. Plans for outreach, supporting missionaries financially,etc. Those are the things that I think a board, trustees, admin, etc can help a pastor realize the vision he has for the church by being a sounding board, giving advice, etc.

[ManOfWord]

There were no "investments." There was no energies scheme.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by CC1

JTullock,

This is always a difficult situaton. On the one hand I think pastors need accountibility. It protects both them and the church.

Pastors need to realize that they are human and their expertise should be in pastoring, reaching souls, etc not in business. Financial accountibility protects them from good intentions but bad judgement harming the church financially. (ie wild investment schemes).

So financial accountibility protects both the upright just pastor and the church pastored by one who is not so upright and just.

On the other hand I do not think a church board shoult "run" a church and oppose or second guess what the pastor wants to do unless it is clear folly.

I see the board, trustees, admin, or CFO, etc as checks and balances to make sure the pastor has accountibility and a sounding board.

Yeah I agree. It is a thin, thin line there. It is always important that the church (saints and as a corporation) be protected from financial ruin by a Pastor that made bad choices. I do not think that the board should run the church, but you hit it on the head with what I was trying to say. They are to be checks and balances oh what is going on.

One other thing the pastors wife or other family members need to not be associated with the running of the finances, IMO. That way if things are down below board by the pastor it does not take them down too.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

There were no "investments." There was no energies scheme.

Really...

Do you know what did happen to the money?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

If ANY financial accountability had been in place, this probably would not have happened. When multiple family members are in church "offices" it is a recipe for disaster.

Yep.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Really...

Do you know what did happen to the money?

Lifestyle. His and others.

[chaotic_resolve]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

If ANY financial accountability had been in place, this probably would not have happened. When multiple family members are in church "offices" it is a recipe for disaster.

I know the pastor, JTullock is talking about . . . and yes, it's a disaster.

Pastor
Assistant Pastor: Son-in-law
Secretary: Daughter & another saint
Former Secretary: Sister-in-law
CFO: Sister-in-law's husband (husband of former secretary)

My parents and others received charitable giving statements for their tithes and offerings last year. The only thing that was recorded was what was giving by check. Cash tithes and offerings (even with a marked tithing envelope) were left out and not credited.

Many complaints have been made by people who have designated offerings to a certain ministry - but the ministry (spanish, youth, etc) didn't receive the funds.

Pastors, I'd like to know how this could be done -- how is it possible to claim $16,000 income and yet have 4 quads, 2 (5-bedroom) homes, play golf each weekend (sometimes even during the week), and go on multiple cruises each year?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Lifestyle. His and others.

This is what happens when you think ya got it that way ...

My answer to this situation is still GETTEST THOU A JOB AND PAY RESTITUTION FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES ...

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I
Pastors, I'd like to know how this could be done -- how is it possible to claim $16,000 income and yet have 4 quads, 2 (5-bedroom) homes, play golf each weekend (sometimes even during the week), and go on multiple cruises each year?

I don't think a pastor needs a 5 bedroom home unless he has at least 4 kids.

What makes them think they need a lavish lifestyle?