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  #61  
Old 12-11-2011, 08:21 PM
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AncientPaths AncientPaths is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
I hate religious paranoia.
Me too.
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  #62  
Old 12-12-2011, 07:03 AM
Dagwood Dagwood is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

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Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
They had a path were people walked down and saw the Christmas story. It is amazing that even they know what parts of their doctrine are completely goofy and need to be kept hidden from the general public. But besides that there is much to like about them. I can imagine what would happen if the UPC adopted the "standards" that the Mormons do -which is basically moderation in all things. For the most part they are extremely friendly, healthy (because they teach healthy living -there are VERY few overweight Mormons and most women who have 4-7 kids under their belts look like they were never pregnant once!), and usually well off financially (moderation in spending!).
As a former Mormon (from the age of 10-12), I can vouch for those remarks. Doctrines aside, I'd never met nicer people. Talk about family structure! They've got it. And, the financial structure is there also. Although my next door neighbors were looked down upon from other neighbors because of their questionable living conditions (i.e. not-so-clean house, very plain-clothed people), other friends of ours lived in and built a beautiful home backing up to a golf course and were very fashionably dressed. However, both families displayed the same spirit of humilty, kindness, and compassion alike. It didn't matter who had what finances; most of the Mormon folk were extremely nice and outgoing, and they'd do almost anything to help someone out with no strings attached...
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  #63  
Old 12-12-2011, 07:30 AM
shag shag is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
Well I don't generally involve myself in these little discussions any more but I'll delve into this post.



I agree with you that the mentioned of taking a tree and fastening it with nails etc is probably not speaking of the pagan rituals that eventually became the christmas tree... and if it was... who could prove it. So I don't hold onto that scripture for that purpose. It's a losing battle that is based on flimsy evidence.

But I do believe that these scriptures do pertain to the christmas tree issue in this manner... Learn not the way of the heathen...
The holiday and all of it's trappings would have never become a part of christianity had this portion of scripture been obeyed. The traditions of the season are clearly of heathen origin and they should have never been learned and practiced by God's church.

This is one of the scriptures that have formed my comparitively moderate approach to my refraining from the holiday. Of course I don't believe that pagan celebrations were the intent of this scripture. I don't think the writer intended to be saying that using heathen practices designed and intended for a heathen god were okay to take and place a thin veneer or christianity over and then use as worship to the one true God.

But... again... it is a favored candy stick of those who differ and I find it useless to press the point. So I don't.



Did he really mean that as it is being expressed here? Nothing is unclean of itself? Adultery is not unclean of itself? Murder is not unclean of itself?

No... I am not comparing these things to christmas. I am simply making the statement that this verse is not saying what it is accused of saying. There are things that are wrong.

I believe that the apostles would have warned against combining the worship of heathen gods with the worship of the true God.
But... again... this is my take and my interpretation and to press it on others would be useless and unfruitful.

There are times in the history of God's people where they had picked up practices of heathen worship and they had given that worship unto the Lord. God does not have a history of viewing that worship as acceptable.

When the nation returns to God what we see happen is a good leader will come and tear down the high places etc. What were they doing with those high places? They were using ways of heathen worship and they were performing these methods of worship as unto God. I see no example where God accepted that worship as His own. The ridding of these heathen worship methods was always seen as coming back to God.

This is how I feel about it as well. Personally, I am just uncomfortable putting our Saviour's name on something that has heathen origen. Seems it would be insulting to a jealous God, IMO.....But, I understand that no doubt there is many different opinions and convictions with it all....
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Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. - Eph. 4:29

Last edited by shag; 12-12-2011 at 07:34 AM.
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  #64  
Old 12-12-2011, 07:46 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

Guys... most of us are Gentiles of European heritage. Why do we want to eradicate white European culture? When our ancestors became Christians they maintained their cultural identity. Just like the Maori in New Zealand, they do a tribal "war dance" and even distort their faces in a haka as part of their praise and worship meetings (which are UPCI). So... we kept some seasonal decorations that go back a long way (Yule Logs, Christmas Trees, Mistletoe, etc.). But now those things are "cultural" not spiritual. In fact, many were redefined so that they point to the only true Saviour, Jesus Christ. The Christmas Tree was redefined to represent eternal life in Christ.
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  #65  
Old 12-12-2011, 07:51 AM
shag shag is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Guys... most of us are Gentiles of European heritage. Why do we want to eradicate white European culture? When our ancestors became Christians they maintained their cultural identity. Just like the Maori in New Zealand, they do a tribal "war dance" and even distort their faces in a haka as part of their praise and worship meetings (which are UPCI). So... we kept some seasonal decorations that go back a long way (Yule Logs, Christmas Trees, Mistletoe, etc.). But now those things are "cultural" not spiritual. In fact, many were redefined so that they point to the only true Saviour, Jesus Christ. The Christmas Tree was redefined to represent eternal life in Christ.
not for me
For me personally to do/think that, in my own mind I would be doing so just as a desperate attempt to justify partaking in something that hasn't got anything to do with Jesus Christ.(but rather roots in things he hates)
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If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart...
Abraham Lincoln


Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. - Eph. 4:29

Last edited by shag; 12-12-2011 at 08:45 AM.
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  #66  
Old 12-12-2011, 08:26 AM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagwood View Post
As a former Mormon (from the age of 10-12), I can vouch for those remarks. Doctrines aside, I'd never met nicer people. Talk about family structure! They've got it. And, the financial structure is there also. Although my next door neighbors were looked down upon from other neighbors because of their questionable living conditions (i.e. not-so-clean house, very plain-clothed people), other friends of ours lived in and built a beautiful home backing up to a golf course and were very fashionably dressed. However, both families displayed the same spirit of humilty, kindness, and compassion alike. It didn't matter who had what finances; most of the Mormon folk were extremely nice and outgoing, and they'd do almost anything to help someone out with no strings attached...
We're surrounded by them in our neighborhood and I it shows in many ways. For one thing even though we have a public school in the middle of our community it might as well be a nicer private one since there is so much parental involvement. They have an annual "bring your dad to lunch" day and the cars line the streets all around the school. I doubt there would be much of a showing at most other campuses.

Maybe you can vouch for this but there is so much they DON'T condemn, yet seem to have very few problems with -at least less then non-Mormons. Things such as alcohol consumption, they don't condemn it yet I don't hear of many drunks. Likewise dancing and proms are a-ok yet you never seem to see the wild Mormon kids cruising down the streets in their beaters throwing things out the windows and mooning other cars.

Last edited by RandyWayne; 12-12-2011 at 08:28 AM.
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  #67  
Old 12-12-2011, 08:44 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

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Originally Posted by shag View Post
not for me
For me personally to do that, in my own mind I would be doing so just as a desperate attempt to justify partaking in something that hasnt got anything to do with Jesus Christ.
Bro... Veterans Day has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The days of the week are named after pagan gods. The point is... DOMINION. We are to take ALL things from Satan and give them back to Christ, for His glory.
Santa Claus - A tradition of secret giving based on a historical pastor (Nicholas) in Myra.
Stockings - A tradition originating in an act of Nicholas.
Christmas Trees - A festive floral decoration used to mark the winter season and used by the European church to exemplify the Light of Life, shining in the darkness.
December 25th as Christ's birth - Messianic tradition based on an ancient docrtrine known as "Integral Age" dating to the early second century (prior to the revival of the pagan holiday which was about seven days long by the way).
These things are distinctly "Christian" tradition. Now, I'm Irish and English. I'm not ashamed of my culture or my heritage. We have traditions they go way back... but today we know the one who is worthy of our worship. Did you know that steeples are based on the ancient druidic "phalic" symbols perched atop their temples in ancient Europe? Let me guess... you'd never attend a church with a steeple??? LOL The "sermon" is Aristotelian in it's rhetorical structure (popularized by the pagan Stoics). I bet you love a good sermon (it's pagan).

The point is... there are two philosophies among Christians today. Run and hide from all things deemed "unbiblical". And then there is run and conqure ALL THINGS, taking them captive to honor Christ. In this... I'm more Dominion focused. I believe that when we surrender a day, a celebration, a custom to Satan... we're giving him something that he has no right to. ALL THINGS belong to my God. Even December 25th. Even October 31st. Why not TAKE these things from Satan and TAKE DOMINION? Are we meant to be purely on the defense all the time, running from "un-Christian" customs and traditions with our skirts hiked up like little girls? Our do we sit down and say, "This doesn't belong to the enemy. It's mine! I'm taking it and giving it to Christ!"?
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  #68  
Old 12-12-2011, 08:47 AM
houston houston is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

Ha. The mormon kids do everything the upc kids do, just better at hiding it. Small community I am from has a large LDS presence. Everything ya'll have said is true, family values, etc. Education is very important. In h.s. several LDS kids met at their churck at 6:30 a.m. to study their religion maybe 5 days a week, involved in sports and extra curricular activities, and still managed to graduate at the top of the class.
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  #69  
Old 12-12-2011, 08:53 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
We are to take ALL things from Satan and give them back to Christ, for His glory.
Here's your next reclaimation project brother.

You need to begin the grand and glorious move to take the Pentegram (upside down preferrably) and use it to represent the five fold ministry.

Won't God be proud.



We can all start having pentagrams on the front of our pulpits and on the front doors of the church. Maybe even those who wear jewelyr can wear pentagram necklaces. I can feel the revival already. (TIC... of course)

By the way... you don't give things BACK to someone when they never were their own to begin with.

Last edited by Digging4Truth; 12-12-2011 at 08:55 AM.
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  #70  
Old 12-12-2011, 08:54 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: WHAT!?! No Christmas???

I thank God for the marketing of Christmas.

You see, after the pagan holiday was revived to stamp out the Messianic observance of Christ's birth among Jewish Christians, it laid a foundation that became a horror in the Middle Ages. Soon, non-Christians turned the day into a day of riot, drunkenness, rape, and murder. Ghost stories abounded and Christmans looked more like a frozen Halloween. People actually feared the season. Christmas was banned in many localities across Europe... and even in various states during the first 50 years of United States history.

But something changed.

Christmas cards reflecting warm family sentiments, wishing blessing and safety, became popular among the wealthy (an interesting story really). Soon with the gift giving practice of Nicholas among the European Christians business owners began to shift into a marketing campaign to turn hearts towards home. Instead of bands of bandits ransacking the countryside... believers gathered in groups of carrollers to sing God's praises through the night and bless each home from the bandits and darkness of the day. Christians were taking back what Satan had stolen from them.

The marketing of Christmas has radically enfluenced Christmas in departing from the drunken revelry it had degenerated into. I have to break out my book on Christmas traditions published by Zondervan and review this one again. It was chalk full of information.

I thank God they began to market Christmas.
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