Question on standards

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Jay

And you would question and oppose her on it?

There isn't a point to it just as there is no point in asking the wind why it happens to be blowing NE at that moment.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

There isn't a point to it just as there is no point in asking the wind why it happens to be blowing NE at that moment.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof." However, you can see and hear the evidence that the wind is blowing.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by faithit166

well as for me i know without a doubt that god led me to the upc church that had been in this town a very long time although i had never went their before ,my life life was totally changed i totally believe in jesus name baptism acts 2;38 and the standards why would god send me to a place that preaches the message just to not follow in with the standards thats confusion to me i believe when god does something he does it all i just want to please him

Millions of people feel that God led them to a particular organized church system in the world that do not preach on standards. Does God tell
one person to go to a church that teaches dress standards are required to make it to heaven and tell others that they should go to another church that does not preach dress standards? Many felt that God led them to Oral Roberts, or to Rick Warrens, or to Benny Hinn's. What does motivate people to join church organizations? It doesn't say in the Bible we must join man's organizational services. Souls are not required to be "members" of any man made organization...only that we should strive to make it into the Kingdom of God. Is the narrow road legalism? Or is the narrow road a right relationship with Christ and His teachings? The Bible says we must not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Jesus says ...Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

No...in my humblest of hearts, I don't think God divides His church into thousands of denominations. God is no respecter of persons. He give us His Word. His Word is the standard. The Holy Ghost works with each individual to shape and develop each person to what God wants us to be, not some canned one-size-fits-all congregations. (No offense to any who are happy with UPC holiness standards)

Where we come into problem is the many thousands of different interpretations of His Word and those who say that they only have the right way...and that way usually involves some sort of legalistic letter-of-the-law things you must do. The law did not work for the Hebrews and it won't work for us now.

We are to walk in the Spirit. The Apostles gave us (Gentiles) liberty in Christ in Acts 15:7-24 and in Acts 21:25

CC1 did hit the nail on the head and I believe I was in the number 1 category. When I first started attending UPC, I prayed about the standards, then I followed the standards because I too wanted to please God and thought that by doing so it would please Him. Plus, I will admit that I wanted to be more accepted within the church with the other ladies. Likewise, I did need structure as I grew in Christ. The first four or five years in UPC was very much needed. I learned a lot during my formative years in Christ.

It wasn't until the "standards" in many of the congregation's eyes seem to have morphed into becoming "equal" to salvation that I started questioning the standards. Also the fear of being shunned if I disobeyed one of the standards that kept me in line.
I’ve heard statements like “Well, I would rather have never cut my hair and get to heaven and found out it was not necessary to have long uncut hair, than to cut my hair and find out after death that It was necessary not to cut it.”

Huh? Is long uncut hair the catalyst that gets women to heaven? When did uncut hair take the place of what Yeshua did for us on the Cross? My bible says nothing about women who cut their hair will miss heaven. I began to think that if cutting hair was such a big sin that would send women to hell, then the Bible would have made much more of an issue about it and warnings against it would be in many more books like it constantly warns about the “works of the flesh”...

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
I Corinthians 6: 9,10 (or women who cut their hair?)

and
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21 (Heresies. Does this include the magic hair doctrine?)

And

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

(Revelation of John 21:8)



Most people want to feel the love of Christ in their church, not be made to feel that if one did not follow the standards to a "T" they would get a talking to because "one should know better". To hear whispers or get a silent treatment.

However, if one wants to apply pentecostal dress standards in addition to the Blood of Christ, ACTS 2:38-39, then nobody should inhibit or discourage that woman from living her life in that belief. If it takes that for her, then by all means...

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I lived in poverty most of my life. I mainly did not have enough clothes to change out everyday for a week. I washed what I had and wore them several times a week.

OK, after re reading my original post, I must clarify something. I did not live in poverty most of my life. But up to the time I received the Holy Ghost at age 24, I did live in poverty, which at that time was most of my life. Does this make better sense? Sometimes I have a delivery problem with trying to convey what I am thinking.

[RandyWayne]

CC1 did hit the nail on the head and I believe I was in the number 1 category. When I first started attending UPC, I prayed about the standards, then I followed the standards because I too wanted to please God and thought that by doing so it would please Him. Plus, I will admit that I wanted to be more accepted within the church with the other ladies. Likewise, I did need structure as I grew in Christ. The first four or five years in UPC was very much needed. I learned a lot during my formative years in Christ.

It wasn't until the "standards" in many of the congregation's eyes seem to have morphed into becoming "equal" to salvation that I started questioning the standards. Also the fear of being shunned if I disobeyed one of the standards that kept me in line.
I’ve heard statements like “Well, I would rather have never cut my hair and get to heaven and found out it was not necessary to have long uncut hair, than to cut my hair and find out after death that It was necessary not to cut it.”

Huh? Is long uncut hair the catalyst that gets women to heaven? When did uncut hair take the place of what Yeshua did for us on the Cross? My bible says nothing about women who cut their hair will miss heaven. I began to think that if cutting hair was such a big sin that would send women to hell, then the Bible would have made much more of an issue about it and warnings against it would be in many more books like it constantly warns about the “works of the flesh”...

Most people will never admit to peer pressure and social acceptance being the number one reason for toeing the holiness line. When a person finally gives in and acts or looks like the rest there may indeed be a sense of a burden being lifted if for no other reason than they are now officially part of the group.

[FlamingZword]

I do not mind the standards of my fellow brethren in the UPCI when they are preached as just guidelines for proper living, But I do have a serious issue when they elevate those standards to be equal to commandments of God.

I have a standard or rule in the church that no one should be chewing gum. (It gets messy specially when it gets in the carpet) but it would be totally out of line to say that if you chew gum you are going to hell.

Unfortunately many of my UPCI brethren have elevated their rules as soul saving and I view that as a heresy, for salvation is only thru Christ, not by following rules that are not even in the Bible.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

in my humblest of hearts

I see that you read my book on how I achieved perfect humility in 20 short and easy steps. Why, just reading your statement made me realize how truly humble I have become. TIC By the way, all of my hearts are humble.










Just thought that I would have a little fun with that phrase. I know what you meant.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Jay

I have to say with your post here. I spent many of my formative years in a church that had around 75-100 saints. I saw people from different walks of life come in some had to be driven to church if they were going to come, some had cars that were falling apart, some had some of the best cars that had ever been seen (remember that I was between 12-18 during this time). I saw druggies with long hair, people on welfare and SSI, drunks, a pastor's wife from a large congregation, as well as many others pass through the doors of this church. I learned to not scorn those who did have much when the got right with God (not that I could feel that way considering that my shirts were Goodwill). There was a man who after he was delivered from drugs took nearly a year and a half before he wore a pair of dress slacks to church. It took nearly three years (if my memory serves) before he owned a suit. I still have my opinions on what makes for appropiate attire to the house of God, but I will not criticize visitors or brand new saints for not meeting those points; that will happen eventually.

We don't have to "dress up" with suits and ties when we meet with other Christians anywhere, because we are the house of God now, the people not a place. I don't wear a suit or tie, been in the church for almost 15 years. Each to their own.

Stephen died trying to get that point (and much more) across, and the religious stoned him to death.

Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,....

Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,.....

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, .....



Wed night casual, Sun night suits and ties, and Sun am somewhere in between.....all nonsense IMO

Like the song goes, Sometimes, we can make it to the point that even Jesus wouldn't be welcome in our church gatherings, especially after a year or two....we'd have to dress him up and give him a smoooth shave etc to meet our expectations of meeting at the "houseaGod".

[Jay]

Originally Posted by shag

We don't have to "dress up" with suits and ties when we meet with other Christians anywhere, because we are the house of God now, the people not a place. I don't wear a suit or tie, been in the church for almost 15 years. Each to their own.

Stephen died trying to get that point (and much more) across, and the religious stoned him to death.

Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,....

Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,.....

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, .....



Wed night casual, Sun night suits and ties, and Sun am somewhere in between.....all nonsense IMO

Like the song goes, Sometimes, we can make it to the point that even Jesus wouldn't be welcome in our church gatherings, especially after a year or two....we'd have to dress him up and give him a smoooth shave etc to meet our expectations of meeting at the "houseaGod".

I never said that he was lost or not excepted for any of the above. However if I am going to represent Christ, I am certainly going to be attired in the best that I can afford (as long as I keep the price tag reasonable say $200 for the entire suit set). I have worn colored shirts, slacks (without a suit) to church, and never felt troubled. However, I do remain convinced that if I were going to dress up to meet an important dignitary, the least that I can do is to dress my best for the King who made the universe.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Jay

I never said that he was lost or not excepted for any of the above. However if I am going to represent Christ, I am certainly going to be attired in the best that I can afford (as long as I keep the price tag reasonable say $200 for the entire suit set). I have worn colored shirts, slacks (without a suit) to church, and never felt troubled. However, I do remain convinced that if I were going to dress up to meet an important dignitary, the least that I can do is to dress my best for the King who made the universe.

But.... I think Shag's point is...


...you are not only "meeting" him but in close commune with Him (to the point of being His House) - even when at home or naked in the shower.

To me the dress is simple. Dress as you would to go to a similar facility - nothing more, nothing less.

I would not dress the same to go to a high brow liturgical service as I would for cowboy church.