On the right hand of God

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do believe the folks who claim we have sins remitted before we were born also believe we still have to repent. But my issue with them is that Heb 10 says that remission of sins occurs when God writes His laws in our hearts and forgets our iniquities. We did not have God write in our hearts before we were born. Therefore, how could we have sins remitted before we were born?

I think it is a forced gleaning from this passage to say that God forgets our sins when He 'put[s] His laws in our hearts and writes them in our minds.' I have already said though that 'our conscience of sin' is purged/perfected/healed the moment we place our trust in the finished work of the Cross. My father and son analogy pointed out the difference between one party 'forgiving' and a second party 'experiencing/receiving that forgiveness.' This point could come into play here.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just saw your latest notes on this.

I deny that Christ was raised because our sins were remitted. HE was raised because he finished the work to provide for the remission that occurs in us when we repent.I agree that we receive/accept/experience sin remission when we convert to Christ in repentance. We experience God's historic forgiveness which took place on the Cross when we believe.

Having provided the perfect sacrifice for those sins, and having been perfectly obedient he was raised. He was not raised because he remitted our sins.

Having purged our sins he subsequently sat down on the right hand of God.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Hebrews 1:3

No, Cornelius was not given life before sins were remitted. Cornelius obviously repented in his heart while Peter preached, and that caused remission. He believed God for forgiveness and trusted solely int he cross that Peter was preaching.

We agree that Cornelius was not given life before his sins were remitted. Those who hold to baptismal sin remission are mistaken.

Act 10:43 KJV To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Yes, we receive/accept/experience sin remission when we believe.

Cornelius did not have remission of sins before he believed as though Jesus personally gave Cornelius remission of sins long before peter ever preached to him. Peter preached the message and Cornelius believed for it!

Cornelius had not received/experienced the historic remission of the Cross until he trusted in the Gospel message preached to him by Peter.

[Adino]

I asked: When would you say we pass from condemnation into justification? When are we no longer condemned but justified in God's eyes?

Originally Posted by mfblume

This does not occur before we heard the gospel and believe it.

I agree. I would go on to say we pass from condemnation into justification when we pass from unbelief into belief.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

...
No, Cornelius was not given life before sins were remitted. Cornelius obviously repented in his heart while Peter preached, and that caused remission. He believed God for forgiveness and trusted solely in the cross that Peter was preaching.

Act 10:43 KJV To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Cornelius did not have remission of sins before he believed as though Jesus personally gave Cornelius remission of sins long before peter ever preached to him. Peter preached the message and Cornelius believed for it!

The way I understand Acts 10 is that Cornelius and those with him believed what Peter was preaching and were justified/saved/regenerated right then. This salvation experience was followed quickly/immediately with the Holy Ghost Baptism and they spoke with tongues. After their salvation and Holy Ghost Baptism experiences they were baptized in water.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Adino

I asked: When would you say we pass from condemnation into justification? When are we no longer condemned but justified in God's eyes?I agree. I would go on to say we pass from condemnation into justification when we pass from unbelief into belief.

[Adino]

Excerpt from Mfblume:

Christ forgave everyone when He died on the cross.............But that did not mean we were forgiven

Forgiven by Christ yet not forgiven? Do you believe we were forgiven by Christ but not by the Father? Do you believe Christ's forgiveness is historic but not the Father's?

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I must admit that I have not taken the time to carefully read everything Adino has written about this matter, but having said that, I will confess the one thing which I did glean from that which I did read was this: In his opinion, Cornelius was considered "spiritually clean" (sic, "saved") even before Peter was invited to his house to "tell him what he ought to do."

If Cornelius was already justified by his faith in God (and it is apparent that he did possess this, for his actions as a consequence of that faith was the thing which motivated God to visit him), then Adino is, in a sense, saying that Luke's GOD inspired record of the circumstances surrounding Cornelius' conversion are false.

Adino's statements, at least in my opinion, seem to be another classic example of one playing the old "shell game" of showing how one is saved by faith ALONE, and this because Jesus paid the price for the sins of mankind on the cross, and all that we must do is simply "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

Yes, I "believe" Jesus' death on the cross provided the means, that is to say, the "blood" of an innocent human being, which was the ONLY thing that God accepts as an atonement for sin, however, it is through those things which He commands that one MUST do in obedience to their belief ("faith," as it were) by which we are saved. And these actions are repentance, immersion in the waters of baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and the receiving of the baptism of the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

Our obedience through the performance of these actions is what makes us justified, and NOT faith apart from such actions.

These are my personal views, submitted for consideration and analysis by others with respect to their scriptural authenticity.

Adino, please, I humbly implore you, show me where my interpretation of your remarks about this matter is amiss (if, indeed, it be that they are).

Regards,
Lafon

With all due respect your obedience doesn't mean squat to God. You can do nothing to save yourself from hell. It's all been done by Him on the cross or there is no grace.

Our righteousness is like filthy rags and not acceptable to God. God is holy and we are not and it is only by the blood of Jesus that you are accepted, nothing more.

All the other things you listed and more is what one should do out of gladness from the salvation you've received. You and I are worms and scum that have broken every commandment six ways till Sunday and God would never ever except our self righteousness because He his holy.

If you are saved by your own actions then the Christ is false, but every man is a liar and we know that Christ is more than enough.

Because Jesus loved me so much that He took my sins past, present, and future upon Himself (we lie again if we say we no longer sin) and allowed the wrath of God condemn Him. Because of this is the only reason this wretched sinner loves Him. I finally get it nothing saves me except Christ alone and now I hear His voice and follow Him.

Chad

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Adino

I asked: When would you say we pass from condemnation into justification? When are we no longer condemned but justified in God's eyes?I agree. I would go on to say we pass from condemnation into justification when we pass from unbelief into belief.

The Word says that we are justified:

by His blood (Romans 5:9)
by faith (Romans 5:1)
in His name (I Cor. 6:11)
by His Spirit (I Cor. 6:11)
by grace (Titus 3:7).

The Word also says that we receive remission of sins:

by His blood (Matthew 2:28)
faith in that shed blood (Romans 3:25)
belief in His name (Acts 10:43)
through baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4; Acts 2:28)
according to His grace (Eph 1:7)

I wonder why we look for that "one" element to effect our salvation when it appears that it all works together and cannot be separated? It is and always will be by his blood, by faith in His name, by His Spirit, by our obedience, by his mercy and grace. All of these things, together, work our salvation. That is why, I believe, Acts 2:38 is the message. Every element of our salvation is preached by Peter. The basis is our faith, but our faith alone cannot save us. We must have obedient faith.

For instance, I Thess. 2:13 says that He chose us for salvation through "sanctification" of the Spirit and our belief of the truth. But, I Thess 4:4 says that our sanctification/holiness/purity is something we must control in our own body.

Cornelius, IMO, was a miraculous example of proof (as witnessed by the prophets) that God had extended His salvation to the Gentile nation. His being Spirit filled shows his belief of the truth. Every element of the salvation message, Cornelius applied to his life through obedience - "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized.."

I cannot see one element as working alone.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Adino

You would be correct in your conclusion here, jfrog, but I don't recall saying the sin of unbelief is ever forgiven.

Though forgiven by the Cross, mankind remains spiritually dead until he is imputed the righteousness of Christ and quickened from the dead.

The Cross did not offer opportunity to be forgiven of unbelief, it offered opportunity to receive the righteousness of Christ and be made regenerate. One is rescued from the darkness of unbelief not forgiven of it.

Anyone who finds himself in a state of unbelief when he meets his Maker has no further forgiveness. He will be eternally separated from God because he has not come to Christ for righteousness and eternal life.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. On one hand it seems like your saying the sin of unbelief is never ever forgiven. On the other hand it seems like you are saying it was forgiven on the cross like everything else. Further I am not sure how being in the state of unbelief can cause one to have no further forgiveness. It seems to me that once you are forgiven then that forgiveness cannot be rescinded unless you do something new that you weren't previously forgiven for.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

Excerpt from Mfblume:


Forgiven by Christ yet not forgiven? Do you believe we were forgiven by Christ but not by the Father? Do you believe Christ's forgiveness is historic but not the Father's?

I qualified my statement with an explanation later that you failed to quote. When Christ called for forgiveness, it matters not who responded, since the point is that this forgiveness was of the sort that God saw the perfect sacrifice and decided then and there that anyone who would ever seek forgiveness would get it without Him having to pick and choose. The sacrifice was efficacious for any sinner who would ever seek forgiveness. The point is that you cannot forgive someone before they ask for it. You can only be ready to provide it as soon as they ask. THAT is what happened when Christ called for forgiveness.