Biblical Contradiction?

[rava61]

I'm glad to know Jesus - He is the Saviour: the 'Bible' is not the Saviour nor is the preacher or saint.

[SeekingOne]

NotForSale, I think you are correct that it is scary for people to think that the Bible does not have mistakes. I noticed things from a young age that people could not answer, and it always ended with them telling me something that didn't answer my question. :-/

It also always bothered me that people would quote the verse in Revelation for not adding anything to the "book" as if that meant the Bible. LOL The "Bible" was not even around when that was written. But if they can't quote that verse, then that opens up the possibility for someone else to add something "inspired" that we would have to consider as scripture.

If there is a possibility for someone to add to what we call the Bible, then it comes right back to man deciding what is scripture again. So, when a bunch of people start using something someone wrote in their churches all over the world, I guess it would have to become scripture? Oh how confusing it would be if there could be more. (And I am NOT advocating this concept at all, just posting thoughts of how it would possibly be done.)

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

What's so interesting about your response is, you do the same thing others do when giving an answer; you don't give an answer. If my comments about "Killing" are inaccurate, you don't say why or how. Same with unforgiveness, revenge, and loving our enemies. The Old Testament is full of bloodshed and unmerciful killing. Why did God change from the Old to the New? You know why, because MAN wrote the book, and we make "IT" fit our fancy. We will kill because we find a way to justify it.

And, if you are so sure about yourself, and the Bible is so clear about all these complex issues, why are there over 1000 denominations in this Country? Who's right, and who's wrong? The Bible does not bring unity, it causes division, and the reason is simple; MAN wrote it. Arguing over Scripture has been around since it was created. Debate, debate, debate.

How do you know that these men of the past were brillant? Did you know them? Did you speak with them? Do you know thier personal lives as a neighbor? Are you relying on past records or artifacts that could have been easily manipulated by people who are protecting a political or moral stance not held by the Almighty?

Friend, we came to this Land centuries ago and annihalated the Indian culture in the name of Christianity. We brought disease, ripped these people away from the land that they loved and respected, and massacered tribe after tribe with "Gods Love". We claim our Nation as being born upon the Foundation of Scripture, yet we discover our intention upon humanity was brutal and dark. Same with slavery.

You also don't address the Catholic influence upon the Bible we have today. The King James Bible was produced/translated by 47 Scholars who were slanted towards Catholisism, not to mention, England was basically a Catholic country.

And, if what you say is so "solid" about prophecy concerning Jesus Christ, why do the Jews still believe he's NOT the Messiah? With 300 inevitable, undisputed, and EASY to understand prophecies, everyone should feel like you.

I don't know how entrenched you are with the Apostolic Church, but I've been pastoring for almost 13 years, and was brought into this movement back in the 70's. When I became a minister, my eyes were opened to the fallable ways of our "Religion", and I see clearly how we protect those who bring in the numbers. We've become a political machine, motivated by forces that are not Holy. "United" in our name means nothing. Brotherly love is lip service. We take the Scriptures that "FIT", and ignore the rest. It won't be long, Brother, and our mold won't be any different than all the other religions that pound the fist of, WE ARE "RIGHT".

I want to know the True and Living God. The One who created man for His pleasure. The One who talked with man in the cool of the day. The One who made the Heavens and the Earth. I'm tired of MANS idea. I'm tired of dead faith. I'm growing to despise this very thing; We say God is not the Author of confusion, yet, why is there so much confusion with this Book?

We've put God in a "Manual", or a classroom. Defining Him is complicated. We go to the ends of the earth trying to understand. We are no different than the Scribes and Pharasees, well learned, yet completely lost.

Brother, I lay my head on my pillow every night just like any other man. My heart and mind starve to know Him! There is a hunger in me I can't explain. God put that there! My deepest desires are to worship the Almighty. To love Him. To give Him my all. I also realize, I'm so limited, so small, and that I have been a boastful man. Our pulpits burn with God's judgement, while people are on the pews dying of thirst. They hunger inside. The internal compass God gave us is pleading for "true" North, and we are heading due south.

One day, my last breath will be. My final hour will come. My cry to the Father above will hopefully shine above everything I've ever done. I truly see Him as my Father, and me His son.

There are those of us who have declared “If the Bible said Jonah swallowed the whale, I’d believe it”! There are also those of us who believe that the word of God may have been tarnished in translation by virtue of our humanness. Then there are some who ascribe the Bible to a nonsensical book of fairy tales, myths, and nightmarish confessions. I would probably fall somewhere between the first two. I have a few doubts and questions about the KJV and other translations handed down through the years, (hence, starting this thread), but I don’t believe we have access to a better medium that indicates to us the desires and feelings of the Almighty.

NotforSale,

I must confess, I am a bit confused by your position. You state that the Bible is a book of man, yet you openly quote from it and express spiritual understanding that I assume was derived on some level from…the Bible. This substantially weakens, if not totally negates your arguments. Do you believe that God, who is love, is also a God of wrath and justice? Why is it so difficult for you to reconcile this? Is it not consistent in both the OT and the NT? I reject your claim that God changed (in character) from the OT to the NT on the basis of Israel’s actions (which were not always in alignment with God btw). You cite unmerciful killings of the Israelites, but presume that their victims were blameless and innocent before God. I see you conveniently omit the atrocities committed by the pagans that were abominable to God as noted in Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Jeremiah 19:4-6. I must inject your own words here, (which becomes the response of many attempting to solve a self-made conundrum), did you know them? Do you know absolutely the mind of God concerning his ways and judgments?

I also reject your claim that the Bible is the cause for division and false doctrine. These unfortunate evils are the results of the will and thinking of men. In fact, Christianity and the divine messages in the word of God have brought more unity and relevance to humankind than any other document, religion, or technology.

Did I know the famous men who quoted about the Bible (from the link I posted)…what kind of question is this?? No more than I knew the courageous patriots who fought for their country’s liberty in the American Revolutionary War. No more than you or I knew the suffering of the Native Americans who experienced the “Trail of Tears”. No more than you or I knew the Presidents and eloquent framers of the U.S. Constitution, and dare I say that you would not question their existence, or actions, or words?

And concerning the fulfilled prophecies of Jesus, why should I suppose that all men be convinced? Each man has his own mind and prerogative. But since it is on the table, if these prophecies are not miraculous enough in their completion, or are not “solid” enough for your liking, I challenge you to discredit their significance and all those that believe in them.

Again, I agree with many of your points on the shortcomings of religion, etc., etc. I would conclude that we are both on a spiritual journey and quest to know more of God. May we both find the truth of God as he would see fit to reveal.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Notforsale

I understand everthing your saying. But I feel you are going in the wrong direction dening that the bible is not Gods word. I sudjest you do what I did a few years ago. Throw all of mans traditions and teachings and doctrine out the window and renew your search for God within the word. It does not matter what translation you use God did not allow his word the parts anyway that will lead us to him to be lost in all the translations of man, its still there. I know God has become even more real to me in the last years. Its all about a personal relationship with God not a church or group with a certain beleif. For God so loved the world he sent his only begoton son the whosoever beleives on him would not perish but have everlasting life. Only God can make sence of the questions you ask and give you answers.

Thanks for your rebuttle. You are so right. Mans traditions, mans ideas, mans interpretations, they are the reason we are on here trying to figure everything out. My searchings for Him go beyond my current state because of so many complicated, and unanswered questions within the Christian Church in America. We are just touching on the tip of the iceberg here.

As far as the Bible being the Word of God, I have mixed feelings here, because again, man is the one who wrote it and man is the one who claims it is "annointed." No one can deny this. For me to trust a Book that has really only been around since the 16th Century is something I have to deeply consider.

I believe God has placed within man an inner desire to connect with his Creator. This has to be so, because in the Beggining of time, and for thousands of years, there was no Scripture. God did not make a being with a Bible in his arms. The Scripture came much later, and when that happened, the World changed.

We can learn from the Bible, and I teach from it every week, but to stop there, we will isolate, cage up, and confine God with a faithless heart. The reason I say this is, the Church is full of faithlessness. We worry, fret, and our beliefs fall way short in this place we consider to be where we are set free. The Church is full of sin, problems, and so much of the world because we've "canned" God with Scripture. We fail to think about those, who for millineums, carried on a relationship with Him without the bondage of Scripture. The Bible has brought war, division, and hatred towards our brothers. We use it to kill, and to be killed.

I don't want to belittle Scripture, or the power it may possess, but if we are honest, we can see many things that don't line up. Oh, we can make the Word say what we want it to say (Over a 1000 denominations in this Country prove this), but to continue on doing this, we will self-destruct. Paul apparently saw this with the Jews. Thier lust for the Law was unbearable. They couldn't let go, and let God. Murder was in thier eyes to anyone who defied the age old practice of following the traditions of men that were penned in Scripture.

My love for God has not changed. I'm only burdened at the lack of hunger in people to truly know Him. People walk away from our churches more empty than when they first came in. This troubles me. Evangelists love to boast how many received the Holy Ghost at thier last meeting, but they never tell you how many are still there in 10 years. Being born again has become a statistic, not the life change we claim it is.

Something is wrong, Brother, and I won't live in this lie anymore.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by rava61

I'm glad to know Jesus - He is the Saviour: the 'Bible' is not the Saviour nor is the preacher or saint.

Amen, and amen!! More of this thinking will get us back on track!!

I've seen people "Worship" the Bible and the preacher, more the God.

I don't want my relationship to be with a Book. Just like my marriage, my love is for my wife. I want to love my God, from the deapths of my soul!

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

There are those of us who have declared “If the Bible said Jonah swallowed the whale, I’d believe it”! There are also those of us who believe that the word of God may have been tarnished in translation by virtue of our humanness. Then there are some who ascribe the Bible to a nonsensical book of fairy tales, myths, and nightmarish confessions. I would probably fall somewhere between the first two. I have a few doubts and questions about the KJV and other translations handed down through the years, (hence, starting this thread), but I don’t believe we have access to a better medium that indicates to us the desires and feelings of the Almighty.

NotforSale,

I must confess, I am a bit confused by your position. You state that the Bible is a book of man, yet you openly quote from it and express spiritual understanding that I assume was derived on some level from…the Bible. This substantially weakens, if not totally negates your arguments. Do you believe that God, who is love, is also a God of wrath and justice? Why is it so difficult for you to reconcile this? Is it not consistent in both the OT and the NT? I reject your claim that God changed (in character) from the OT to the NT on the basis of Israel’s actions (which were not always in alignment with God btw). You cite unmerciful killings of the Israelites, but presume that their victims were blameless and innocent before God. I see you conveniently omit the atrocities committed by the pagans that were abominable to God as noted in Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Jeremiah 19:4-6. I must inject your own words here, (which becomes the response of many attempting to solve a self-made conundrum), did you know them? Do you know absolutely the mind of God concerning his ways and judgments?

I also reject your claim that the Bible is the cause for division and false doctrine. These unfortunate evils are the results of the will and thinking of men. In fact, Christianity and the divine messages in the word of God have brought more unity and relevance to humankind than any other document, religion, or technology.

Did I know the famous men who quoted about the Bible (from the link I posted)…what kind of question is this?? No more than I knew the courageous patriots who fought for their country’s liberty in the American Revolutionary War. No more than you or I knew the suffering of the Native Americans who experienced the “Trail of Tears”. No more than you or I knew the Presidents and eloquent framers of the U.S. Constitution, and dare I say that you would not question their existence, or actions, or words?

And concerning the fulfilled prophecies of Jesus, why should I suppose that all men be convinced? Each man has his own mind and prerogative. But since it is on the table, if these prophecies are not miraculous enough in their completion, or are not “solid” enough for your liking, I challenge you to discredit their significance and all those that believe in them.

Again, I agree with many of your points on the shortcomings of religion, etc., etc. I would conclude that we are both on a spiritual journey and quest to know more of God. May we both find the truth of God as he would see fit to reveal.

Praise Him, Brother.

Thanks again for your challenge. I've considered your thoughts and points carefully.

God Bless!

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by SeekingOne

NotForSale, I think you are correct that it is scary for people to think that the Bible does not have mistakes. I noticed things from a young age that people could not answer, and it always ended with them telling me something that didn't answer my question. :-/

It also always bothered me that people would quote the verse in Revelation for not adding anything to the "book" as if that meant the Bible. LOL The "Bible" was not even around when that was written. But if they can't quote that verse, then that opens up the possibility for someone else to add something "inspired" that we would have to consider as scripture.

If there is a possibility for someone to add to what we call the Bible, then it comes right back to man deciding what is scripture again. So, when a bunch of people start using something someone wrote in their churches all over the world, I guess it would have to become scripture? Oh how confusing it would be if there could be more. (And I am NOT advocating this concept at all, just posting thoughts of how it would possibly be done.)

Your login name says it all; you are seeking, thank goodness!!

Your thoughts go beyond the barriers of our age. This is all I ask people to do. Stop thinking about right now! Quit believing it's always been like this!

You picture the time before the Scripture was even read or available. We MUST do this, otherwise we throw everyone into the same mold.

Why is this so difficult for us to do? Why are we afraid to do this? I think it's because it may completely destroy our current belief system. This scares us!! This seems so threatning!!

But, I believe, this is where liberty truly is. God becomes so much bigger! So much more poweful!! His face shines the brightest when we see Him as the Master of mercy, and as a Father who will love His children like we love our own children!

God bless, Seeking One

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Thanks for your rebuttle. You are so right. Mans traditions, mans ideas, mans interpretations, they are the reason we are on here trying to figure everything out. My searchings for Him go beyond my current state because of so many complicated, and unanswered questions within the Christian Church in America. We are just touching on the tip of the iceberg here.

As far as the Bible being the Word of God, I have mixed feelings here, because again, man is the one who wrote it and man is the one who claims it is "annointed." No one can deny this. For me to trust a Book that has really only been around since the 16th Century is something I have to deeply consider.

I believe God has placed within man an inner desire to connect with his Creator. This has to be so, because in the Beggining of time, and for thousands of years, there was no Scripture. God did not make a being with a Bible in his arms. The Scripture came much later, and when that happened, the World changed.

We can learn from the Bible, and I teach from it every week, but to stop there, we will isolate, cage up, and confine God with a faithless heart. The reason I say this is, the Church is full of faithlessness. We worry, fret, and our beliefs fall way short in this place we consider to be where we are set free. The Church is full of sin, problems, and so much of the world because we've "canned" God with Scripture. We fail to think about those, who for millineums, carried on a relationship with Him without the bondage of Scripture. The Bible has brought war, division, and hatred towards our brothers. We use it to kill, and to be killed.

I don't want to belittle Scripture, or the power it may possess, but if we are honest, we can see many things that don't line up. Oh, we can make the Word say what we want it to say (Over a 1000 denominations in this Country prove this), but to continue on doing this, we will self-destruct. Paul apparently saw this with the Jews. Thier lust for the Law was unbearable. They couldn't let go, and let God. Murder was in thier eyes to anyone who defied the age old practice of following the traditions of men that were penned in Scripture.

My love for God has not changed. I'm only burdened at the lack of hunger in people to truly know Him. People walk away from our churches more empty than when they first came in. This troubles me. Evangelists love to boast how many received the Holy Ghost at thier last meeting, but they never tell you how many are still there in 10 years. Being born again has become a statistic, not the life change we claim it is.

Something is wrong, Brother, and I won't live in this lie anymore.

Acctualy it was not intended as a rebutal I was trying to incourage you. Athough I have not given up on the bible, I have come from the way I was raised to a differant leval of understanding. Yes I agree the word was written by men move on by the Holy Spirit. But just as one that is used in prophecy or tongues and interpretation. the wording is there own as much as it is God. God gives the impresion of the message but the words are the mans or the womens. At least that is the way it has been for me. I have tested it many times. The point is the way to God and and the why are still in the word. From that we can grow in the spirit, and I have found the spirit can and does want to lead us, and show us his desire. Too many times we get caught up in the sematics of christianity and that is where we go wrong. God was in Christ bringing the world back to him. That came home to me just in the last few months. Salvation is great but if we don't go on and form a personal relationship with God we have stopped growing. I was lucky, at the beginning of my ministry I learned to listen to the voice of God so I came to recognize when he was speaking to me. It was easy to listen to God over man as I came to new knowledge found in his word. Some times this has been hard because of the way many of my former freind would think. But as God lead my children in the same way independantly God has been made more real to me.

I must say God has never failed me in my whole life. He has been always by my side with that said "there is a God that loves his creation and wants what is best for them.

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Your login name says it all; you are seeking, thank goodness!!

Your thoughts go beyond the barriers of our age. This is all I ask people to do. Stop thinking about right now! Quit believing it's always been like this!

You picture the time before the Scripture was even read or available. We MUST do this, otherwise we throw everyone into the same mold.

Why is this so difficult for us to do? Why are we afraid to do this? I think it's because it may completely destroy our current belief system. This scares us!! This seems so threatning!!

But, I believe, this is where liberty truly is. God becomes so much bigger! So much more poweful!! His face shines the brightest when we see Him as the Master of mercy, and as a Father who will love His children like we love our own children!

God bless, Seeking One

Yep, seeking is what I am doing. I came to this forum seeking truth, seeking what is really in scripture and what is our opinion of what is in scripture. There are verses that can't be argued, like "Do not commit adultery" and then so many other scriptures we all use to back up our opinions. (Yeppers, I said "we" because I do it too. I just don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion.)

[Walks_in_islam]

Why stop at the questioned contradiction? There is a whole list of them. The problem I have is when someone uses a contradiction to make a specific point, as some starry eyed apostolic did to me the other day pointing out that "Jesus was worshipped by Jarius". True, one book said worshipped, but the others said that Jarius threw himself down and begged for his daugher's life. No mention of worship. Not a very good point, as we are taught that Jesus did not ever teach that HE was to be prayed to ever. He merely taught to pray to the FATHER which was his reference to the God of Abraham. Praying to ONE GOD is taught throughout all books and all teachings by all prophets. So, what about the other apparant contradictions? Here is a short list and there are many more....Nobody can explain them and discussion of this list usually ends in crude insults and no answers.

David was incited to count the fighting men of Isreal. In 2nd Samuel, God incited him. In I Chronicles, Satan incited him. When they were counted, 2nd Samual says 800,000 and I Chronicles says 1.1 MM.

God threatens David with 7 years of famine in 2nd Samuel, 3 years of famine in I Chronicles.

Ahaziah was 22 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings. He was 42 in 2nd Chronicles.

Jehoiachin was 18 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings, 8 when he began his rule in 2nd Chronicles

David's "chief of mighty men" killed 800 men at one time in 2nd Samuel and 300 men at one time in I Chronicles

David carried the Ark into Jerusalem AFTER defeating the Philistines in 2nd Samuel. Before defeating them in Chronicles 13/14

David captured 1700 horsemen after defeating the King of Zobah in 2nd Samuel, 7000 in I Chronicles.

Solomon had 40,000 stalls for horses in I Kings. 4000 stalls in 2nd Chronicles.
During King Asa's reign Baasha King of Isreal died in the 26th year in I Kings. He was still alive in the 36th year in I chronicles.

Solomon appointed 3600 overseers to build the temple in 2nd chronicles. 3300in I Kings.

Solomon built a facility containing 2000 baths in I kings. It had 3000 in 2nd chronicles.

Isrealites freed from Babylonian captivity:
Children of Pahrath-Moab:
2812 Ezra. 2818 Nehemiah
Children of Azgad:
1222 Ezra. 2333 Nehemiah
And so on. The total numbers agree in each book as 42,360, but if you add each individual column from each book Ezra adds to 29,818 and Nehemiah adds to 31,089

There were 200 singers in the assembly in Ezra and 245 in the assembly in Nehemiah.

King Abijah's mother's name was Michaiah, daughter of Uriel in one chapter of 2nd chronicles and Maachah daughter of Absalom in another chapter.
Absalom however had only one daughter mentioned whose name was Tamar in 2nd Samuel.

Joshua and the Isrealites captured Jerusalem in Joshua 10 and did not capture it in Joshua 15.

Father of Joseph, husband of Mary was Jacob in Matthew and Heli in Luke
Jesus descended from Solomon in Matthew and from Nathan in Luke

The father of Shealtiel was Jechoniah in Matthew and Neri in Luke

Abiud son of Zerubbabel was the anscestor of Jesus in Matthew and Rhesa son of Zerubbabel in Luke. Neither are mentioned as sons of Zerubbabel in the list in I Chronicles.

Father of Uzziah was Joram in Matthew and Amaziah in 2nd Chronicles

Father of Jechoniah was Josiah in Matthew and Jeholakim in I Chronicles

The angel stated that Jesus would inherit the throne of David in Luke. But Matthew says he is a descendent of Jehoiakim and I Chronicles says "and Jehoiaikim was cursed by god so that none of his descendents can sit upon David's throne" Oops.

Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt in Mark and Luke and a colt/donkey in Matthew

Simon Peter found out that Jesus was Christ from a heavenly revelation in Matthew, but his brother Andrew told him in John.

Jesus met Simon and Andrew by the Sea of Galilee in Matthew and on the banks of the Jordan in John

Jairus' daughter was dead when he met Jesus in Matthew but not dead / at the point of death in Mark

The disciples were allowed to keep a staff on their journeys in Mark. They were not allowed in Matthew and Luke

Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist in Matthew and Mark. He did not in Luke.

John the Baptist recognized Jesus in John. He did not recognize him in Matthew.

Jesus cleansed the temple the day he entered Jerusalem in Matthew. He spent the night in Bethany and cleansed it the next day in Mark

Judas kissed Jesus in Matthew. He did not in John

The curtain in the temple was rent after Jesus died in Matthew and Mark. Before Jesus died in Luke.

Both thieves mocked Jesus in Mark. One mocked, one defended in Luke

Jesus ascended to paradise on the day of crucifixion in Luke. He said to Mary he has not yet ascended (two days later) in John

The apostle Paul and companions on the road to Damascus:
All heard the voice in Acts 9. Not all heard the voice in Acts 22
The companions fell to the ground in Acts 26. They did not in Acts 9
The voice spelled out Paul's duties in Acts 26. The voice told him to go to Damascus in Acts 9.

The visitors to the tomb of Jesus were different in every single gospel. Why? How can something so simple and so important have such inconsistancies? The conversion of "Saul to Paul" is the foundation and indeed the starting point of moving christianity away from the laws of God. Would it be too much to expect that the (two) versions would at least match? Didn't (1) person write the book of Acts? Because Acts is the basis for the apostolic faith to determine who does and does not enter paradise yes?

Is is possible that bits and pieces were added to and subtracted from to make various points during the re-writing and re-writing throughout history? Think on these things.