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  #61  
Old 08-30-2008, 10:37 PM
CAD/JPY CAD/JPY is offline
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

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Originally Posted by theoldpaths View Post
I think you mean 1 Cor 11.

That chapter mentions shorn and shaven.

I highly recommend you read Woodward's "Because We Are His" bible study which includes a great section on hair. It can be found online at...

http://www.capitalcommunity.ca/pdf/B...0Are%20His.pdf

Hair is the covering and to pray uncovered one must remove some of the covering.
Thanks, I have a bit of difficulty with people who try to use the occult to prove their point, and also take random events (like the stock market crash) and state that it was an act of God or the judgement of God.

If I was to apply that same thinking, I would have to say that all of our good Pentecostal brethern in Chalmate and New Orleans, LA were living horribly and thus felt the judgment of God in the wrath of Hurricane Katrina. Surely there were more than 10 righteous there...

I stopped reading after the occult part. Sorry... might continue later.

BUT to comment on your last line about hair being the covering... It also clearly states what it is supposed to cover. The head. And it states that long hair is given to replace the veil.

All the best.
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  #62  
Old 08-30-2008, 10:54 PM
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

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Originally Posted by staysharp View Post
Also, even if it was a new "norm", it still isn't sin. Even if it was a shame and still is today, doesn't make it a sin.
Aah.... the old "maybe it's a shame, but that doesn't make it a sin" argument.
(groan)
Surely, you guys can do better than that.

Anyway, SS. I'm not even going to add anything more to that.

Blessings to you sir.
G'nite.
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  #63  
Old 08-31-2008, 07:55 AM
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

The use of a veil is foolish. Sorry to be so blunt...about like some people I saw in the states with hats on. I asked why so many hats I was told it was their covering! If they really believe the veil message they would get them a BIBLE veil not a hat.
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  #64  
Old 08-31-2008, 09:45 AM
theoldpaths theoldpaths is offline
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

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Originally Posted by CAD/JPY View Post
Thanks, I have a bit of difficulty with people who try to use the occult to prove their point, and also take random events (like the stock market crash) and state that it was an act of God or the judgement of God.

If I was to apply that same thinking, I would have to say that all of our good Pentecostal brethern in Chalmate and New Orleans, LA were living horribly and thus felt the judgment of God in the wrath of Hurricane Katrina. Surely there were more than 10 righteous there...

I stopped reading after the occult part. Sorry... might continue later.

BUT to comment on your last line about hair being the covering... It also clearly states what it is supposed to cover. The head. And it states that long hair is given to replace the veil.

All the best.
After the "spiritual significance of the hair" part that you stopped at, the bible study goes verse by verse into 1 Cor 11. A lot of good stuff there that you will miss if you don't continue; but hey, that's your choice.

If you will continue, the study talks about the veil.

In any event, to pray uncovered means that a woman has removed some (shorn) or all (shaven) of her covering. If hair is the covering and one removes some of it, then they have removed some of their covering; it has become a little bit uncovered. Hair is the covering. To "un" something means to reverse or "undo" something.

But why should re-invent the wheel and try to explain it, when the bible study I mentioned does such a better job.
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  #65  
Old 08-31-2008, 01:41 PM
staysharp staysharp is offline
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

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Originally Posted by theoldpaths View Post
After the "spiritual significance of the hair" part that you stopped at, the bible study goes verse by verse into 1 Cor 11. A lot of good stuff there that you will miss if you don't continue; but hey, that's your choice.

If you will continue, the study talks about the veil.

In any event, to pray uncovered means that a woman has removed some (shorn) or all (shaven) of her covering. If hair is the covering and one removes some of it, then they have removed some of their covering; it has become a little bit uncovered. Hair is the covering. To "un" something means to reverse or "undo" something.

But why should re-invent the wheel and try to explain it, when the bible study I mentioned does such a better job.
We cannot cover ourselves...we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. That's the silliest thing I've heard. If a women can't pray with her head uncovered because she is in submission then a man shouldn't either because he is in submission to Christ.

BTW the Jewish men have prayed with their heads covered since the time of Moses.
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  #66  
Old 08-31-2008, 01:43 PM
staysharp staysharp is offline
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

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Originally Posted by TRFrance View Post
Aah.... the old "maybe it's a shame, but that doesn't make it a sin" argument.
(groan)
Surely, you guys can do better than that.

Anyway, SS. I'm not even going to add anything more to that.

Blessings to you sir.
G'nite.
I'm just curious...why do you feel the need to defend this? Was the statement I made untrue? Why do you make light of my statement...do you honestly feel this is a sin issue against God?
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  #67  
Old 09-01-2008, 10:16 AM
theoldpaths theoldpaths is offline
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

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Originally Posted by staysharp View Post
We cannot cover ourselves...we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. That's the silliest thing I've heard. If a women can't pray with her head uncovered because she is in submission then a man shouldn't either because he is in submission to Christ.

BTW the Jewish men have prayed with their heads covered since the time of Moses.
Read 1 Cor 11 and please tell me what was given the woman for a covering according to the word of God?
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  #68  
Old 09-01-2008, 05:03 PM
staysharp staysharp is offline
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

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Originally Posted by theoldpaths View Post
Read 1 Cor 11 and please tell me what was given the woman for a covering according to the word of God?
We shall take a closer look at all of these questions, but for now, we should determine what kind of veil is being discussed in I Corinthians 11. Some assume that Paul was speaking of hats, scarves, doilies, or the like, just anything to cover the top (or part of the top) of the head. But the veil mentioned here covered not only the top of the head, it hung clear down over the face as well! The Greek word is katakalupto (Strong's Concordance, #2619). The prefix kata indicates the idea of "down"; kalupto has the meaning of "to cover wholly, to conceal."

Katakalupto appears in the following places of I Corinthians 11:

* ". . . if a woman be not covered" (verse 6)
* ". . . let her be covered" (verse 6)
* ". . .a man ought not to cover his head" (verse 7).

In its noun form, the word translated "covered" is kaluma. Bullinger defines it as "a covering . . . a veil hiding all the face except the eyes and falling upon the shoulders. "Liddell and Scott define it as "a covering, a hood or veil, a grave"; that is, the kaluma covered the whole head, even as a grave covers the whole body. That the kaluma covered the face (and not just the top of the head) is clearly seen in the example of Moses who "put a veil (kaluma) over his face" (II Corinthians 3:13). It so completely covered his face that the brightness of his countenance could not be seen.

In 1 Corinthians 11:4,7, for example, we read: "Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head . . . a man indeed ought not to cover his head." But there is nothing else in the Bible which would indicate this was wrong. To the contrary, the high priest in the Old Testament was to have his head covered as he ministered! "And he that is the high priest among his brethren . . . shall not uncover his head" (Lev. 21:10). Aaron and his sons all wore some type of headdress during their sacrificial rituals (Lev. 8:9, 13; 10:6).

If you are sincere in truly seeking understanding, let me know and I'll give you some references. IMO Paul was clearly speaking of a veil, however we don't understand why. Also, the greek word used for "her hair given to her for a covering is a different word than veil. God bless
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  #69  
Old 09-17-2008, 08:01 AM
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?



So does this mean I need to wear a ski mask?
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  #70  
Old 03-27-2013, 01:11 PM
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Re: Did Paul let his hair grow long?

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Originally Posted by theoldpaths View Post
The following is taken from "Because We Are His, Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness, The Hair Question" by Raymond Woodward...

"Some contend that while Paul taught men to have short hair, he himself took a Nazarite vow, basing this opinion on Acts 18:18 - “And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.” However, the “vow” referred to in this verse is from “euche,” the same word used in James 5:15 for the “prayer” of faith. Paul did not shave his head because he was finishing a Nazarite vow, for the New Testament church did not practice that! Rather, he had just been delivered from the court of Gallio, so he needed to cut (“kiero”) his hair because he was going to prayer! Paul knew that God cared what his hair looked like!"

The whole section on hair is quite interesting.
I have to interpret the above passage as unscriptural to the extent of being ridiculous. Read the entire passage of Acts 18-21. The Jews were after Paul's life because they thought he taught against the Law of Moses. As a trick, or a decoy, to get along with the Jews, Paul took a meaningless OT vow of a Nazarite. Those who took the Nazarite vow (both men and women) were required to shave their heads at its completion (Num. 6:2-18). In Acts 21:23 there were 4 other disciples who also took the vow, and their heads were shaved in the Temple, whereas Paul ended his vow with his head shorn in Cenchrea. Shorn (keiro) and shave (xurao) are closely related, etymologically, and used synonymously at times.

Paul took his vow in Corinth where he stayed a year and 6 months (Acts 18:11). In vv12-17 the Jews came against Paul. Then in v18, "And Paul after this tarried there yet a GOOD WHILE, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria...having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow."

It was during Paul's extended stay at Corinth that he did not cut his hair. It was not cut until he got to Cenchrea, the eastern seaport of Corinth, where he boarded a ship to continue his missionary journey. His hair grew to a length somewhere between "shorn" and the length at which it would have been a "shame" or "long" in ancient Greco-Roman culture.

It was not a "shame" for men in OT times to have "long" hair. Samuel was a Nazarite from birth as was Samson and perhaps John the Baptist. Hebrew Nazarite men wore "long" hair, and there was no sign of effeminancy attached. Women, who ended a Nazarite vow, had shaved heads with no sign of lesbianism, or "shame," attached. The ancient Hebrews, as well as Greeks and Romans, routinely shaved the heads of female captives. In ancient times Greek and Roman men all wore "long" hair, and ALL Greek men were "gay." The Romans thought being "gay" was "cool," but through the work of the moral philosophers and the Emperor's program (esp. Augustus) to raise the morals of the Empire, by the 1st century the ENTIRE EMPIRE viewed long hair on men and short haircuts on women as sexual inversions. Men wore the Ceasarcuts after the Emperor and ALL women wore long hair.

The word, "shame," used by the Apostle in v6, is not the word, "sin," and does NOT mean a condition before God, but it bear a CULTURAL meaning -- that of wearing a badge of infamy before the public. The Greek word is atimia. It was the most common word used by philosophers to describe effeminate hair. Paul used both atimia and phusis ("nature") in condemning homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27. Such terminology also occurs in Philo of Alexandria, who also condemned same-sex love as contrary to nature. There is a lengthy list of ancient writers who regarded lebsian practices as "unnatural": Plato, Seneca the Elder, Martial, Ovid, Ptolemy, Dorotheos of Siden, Manetho, Pseudo-Phocyclides..." The moral philosophers who eschewed homoerotic relationships utilized appeals to "nature" as "proof" for their arguments.

Paul was opposed to long hair on men and short haircuts on women because of the association with and involvement hair length had with homosexuality and lesbianism in his CULTURE. This connection did NOT exist in ancient times, or before the 1st century. After the "fall of Rome," longer hair on men came into vogue, having lost its link with homosexuality. Throughout history, longer hair on men has come in and out of style. George Washington wore a pony tail, called a queue, but no one accuses the Founding Fathers of our country of being "gay." The Titus cut in France in 1796 ushered in the fashion of short hair for women (1790-1800), and short hair styles for women became totally detached from lesbianism.

So, yes, Paul let his hair grow for the duration of his Nazarite vow, but it didn't grow to his shoulders, which was considered "long." The Greek verb, komao, translated "have long hair," had more than one meaning, depending upon the context of the reading passage. In some contexts, like that of a VOW, be it the Hebrew Nazarite vow or a Pagan vow, komao would mean "uncut" hair, or let the hair grow; but, komao was the general term for hair that had reached a length of measuremnent of "long" or a length that distinguished between the sexes and was NOT the Greek word for "uncut" hair.

Go here for more info:

http://www.studyholiness.com/hair_length_2.html
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