Twitter-TF Tenney at Jentezn Franklin's 2morrow!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Questions for ministers:

1. Have you ever used another person’s sermon whole or in part?

2. Have you given credit for the sermon or ideas from it?

3. How do you distinguish between larceny and inspiration?

4. What should we do with offenders?

1. Yes

2. No

3. The sermon may have inspired, encouraged, or taught me and I wanted to inspire, encourage, or teach others so I "personalized" someone else's sermon and passed it on as my own. I don't see anything morally, ethically, or legally wrong there. If I published someone else's work and passed it off as my own there could be copyright problems but I don't see that applying to a sermon or teaching that I might modify or adapt and utilize.

4. No comment

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Wow...didn't realize this thread had blown up into a plagiarism fight! LOL!!!!

I have to lean toward Jeffrey on this one--there's no good reason not to credit your source.

I wouldn't go so far as to malign the motives of every man that does it--but it definitely isn't the most ethical move to make. Some people are just thoughtless or ignorant--it isn't always deliberately malicious.

I would object to:

1. Using someone else's sermon word for word, even if you do credit the source, with a few exceptions. (Perhaps if a sermon is given in the form of a speech or shared with proper credit for a special event)

2. Purposely taking credit for someone else's unique thought or sermon--that's just plain old dishonesty.

3. Not giving credit (not to be confused with taking personal credit) for extensive use of someone else's thought or sermon--that's unethical.

4. Accusing someone of dishonesty or a lack of ethics for having a similar title and thought as another minister--I've been around Pentecost all my life, and I've heard this happen multiple times. Sometimes the titles are exactly the same, and it's just coincidence. Occasionally, it's obvious that plagiarism is involved.

However. All that said, I think at some point, older ministers should lay out their sermon material for younger men to use freely--and proper credit should be given to the author when it is used.

Also, there's a bit of stigma associated with using someone else's entire sermon because it smells like you were just too lazy to do your own studying. I have respect for people who write things from scratch. A lot of songwriters will avoid listening to the radio when they're in writing mode, (or altogether) because they don't want to even accidentally plagiarize someone else's work. To that end, I appreciate ministers who take the Bible, reference books and notebook to prayer and come out with something fresh. It might be impossible or difficult to have an original bread recipe, but the bread itself should be fresh!

Seems everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid tonight!

Look I know that some people take issue with using another persons sermon. But do you honestly think if someone in the UPC uses a sermon they saw on tv the the person that preached in on TV would be upset about it? Seriously? They probably couldn't or wouldn't care at all!

I think that it would be tough to prove that someone is using a sermon word for word anyway. Someone that s trying to pick apart a sermon will anyway they can.

Finally crediting your source.....don't we all credit the Bible when we preach?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Sam

1. Yes

2. No

3. The sermon may have inspired, encouraged, or taught me and I wanted to inspire, encourage, or teach others so I "personalized" someone else's sermon and passed it on as my own. I don't see anything morally, ethically, or legally wrong there. If I published someone else's work and passed it off as my own there could be copyright problems but I don't see that applying to a sermon or teaching that I might modify or adapt and utilize.

4. No comment

Interesting, Sam.

Though personalized, what was wrong with referencing a source or even your inspiration when delivering the message? That is the question here, "Why not?"

(And I say this to a man that cites sources more than anyone on AFF)

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Sam

1. Yes

2. No

3. The sermon may have inspired, encouraged, or taught me and I wanted to inspire, encourage, or teach others so I "personalized" someone else's sermon and passed it on as my own. I don't see anything morally, ethically, or legally wrong there. If I published someone else's work and passed it off as my own there could be copyright problems but I don't see that applying to a sermon or teaching that I might modify or adapt and utilize.

4. No comment

I agree with ya Sam. I don't mean this personally toward Jeffrey at all this is just a statement. I think that man preachers are just so, so insecure that they can't handle it if someone else uses a good thought they had or something. It is that same underlying issue that causes some preachers to get upset when a person or family leave 'their' church for another one. I think that it can be boiled down to insecurity.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Seems everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid tonight!

Look I know that some people take issue with using another persons sermon. But do you honestly think if someone in the UPC uses a sermon they saw on tv the the person that preached in on TV would be upset about it? Seriously? They probably couldn't or wouldn't care at all!

I think that it would be tough to prove that someone is using a sermon word for word anyway. Someone that s trying to pick apart a sermon will anyway they can.

Finally crediting your source.....don't we all credit the Bible when we preach?

It's not about who will be upset, it's about what is ethical, JT.

It's also not about "proving" an allegation (at least the discussion on plagiarism).

Using the Bible as a source/reference, neither exempts you from being honest with your audience about your duplicated outline from another.

Unlike, MB, I'm okay if you want to read a sermon word-for-word, if you've given proper credit. Obviously, it meant something to you. And if it's that good, it will still be that good.

I also agree w/MB that it's not always a lack of humility, and sometimes just ignorance (or as I said, laziness).

Also, JT, what does the UPC have to do with anything. That's the second of third time you brought them into this? We aren't indicting a person or group. My reference to JF was not an allegation from myself -- but it directed us to the topic of plagiarism since your early defense of JF.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I agree with ya Sam. I don't mean this personally toward Jeffrey at all this is just a statement. I think that man preachers are just so, so insecure that they can't handle it if someone else uses a good thought they had or something. It is that same underlying issue that causes some preachers to get upset when a person or family leave 'their' church for another one. I think that it can be boiled down to insecurity.

You're still stuck on how the upset "victim" feels. I'm not talking about the feelings of the "other guy" at all.

Let's talk about insecurity -- preaching another's sermon word-for-word without giving credit. THAT'S insecure.

You just went into an illogical tangent on your last comment.

Insecurity, pride... everything you've accused the "other person" who is unknown, and not really the subject here, is really a revealing (possibly) of the perpetrator.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Seems everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid tonight!

Look I know that some people take issue with using another persons sermon. But do you honestly think if someone in the UPC uses a sermon they saw on tv the the person that preached in on TV would be upset about it? Seriously? They probably couldn't or wouldn't care at all!

JTULLOCK, if I credit an author, it's not because I think they will "care" if I don't--it's about my personal integrity. I don't want to lead someone to believe that a particular thought or quote is mine if it isn't, and the only way to prevent that is to vaguely state that I heard it somewhere, or give the actual author's name.

I think that it would be tough to prove that someone is using a sermon word for word anyway. Someone that s trying to pick apart a sermon will anyway they can.

Finally crediting your source.....don't we all credit the Bible when we preach?

No, no one's trying to pick apart a sermon any way they can. I've heard fantastic sermons by legends--and then heard a young evangelist in a revival preach the same thing word for word. It didn't require purposeful picking apart on my part. It was just obvious and made me cringe. I haven't listened to anything of JF's, and I don't know the details about his alleged plagiarism.

In general, plagiarism just simply isn't necessary. Plagiarism isn't just using someone's property--it's using it without permission or without giving credit. I don't have a problem with young ministers using sources or being inspired by older ministers--that's to be expected. Being inspired to preach on the same topic, in your own words, is NOT the same as copying an entire sermon or giving an exact quote as your own.

Why not credit a source?

[Jeffrey]

MB just is more eloquent and articulate than I. I couldn't have said it better. (A good example of when to quote someone btw )

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You're still stuck on how the upset "victim" feels. I'm not talking about the feelings of the "other guy" at all.

Let's talk about insecurity -- preaching another's sermon word-for-word without giving credit. THAT'S insecure.

You just went into an illogical tangent on your last comment.

Insecurity, pride... everything you've accused the "other person" who is unknown, and not really the subject here, is really a revealing (possibly) of the perpetrator.

This thread actually reminded me of a rather comical phase my younger daughter went through. She was filling notebooks with the lyrics of songs that she liked, and then showing them to us as songs she had "written." It took us a little while to finally make the idea clear that writing a song was a little more involved than just penning it on paper. Try explaining "original thought" to an 8 or 9 year old--without hurting her feelings over all the songs she thought she could claim as hers!

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

It's not about who will be upset, it's about what is ethical, JT.

It's also not about "proving" an allegation (at least the discussion on plagiarism).

Using the Bible as a source/reference, neither exempts you from being honest with your audience about your duplicated outline from another.

Unlike, MB, I'm okay if you want to read a sermon word-for-word, if you've given proper credit. Obviously, it meant something to you. And if it's that good, it will still be that good.

I also agree w/MB that it's not always a lack of humility, and sometimes just ignorance (or as I said, laziness).

Also, JT, what does the UPC have to do with anything. That's the second of third time you brought them into this? We aren't indicting a person or group. My reference to JF was not an allegation from myself -- but it directed us to the topic of plagiarism since your early defense of JF.

UPC has everything to do with it cause I am sure that is where the bulk of the accusations you are talking about come from. Am I wrong?

Maybe I don't have any humility. I see nothing wrong with using a sermon topic or even some points from another preacher. I honestly see it that if a person gets upset about it that it is just insecurity talking. I see that someone that uses someone elses sermon might be insecure. I get that. But the times that I have used someones sermon idea was NEVER out of insecurity at all.