History of Tithes in the Church

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And, why exactly did he pay a tenth of the (no spoilers)?

I see what you did there!

Good question though.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And, why exactly did he pay a tenth of the (no spoilers)?

Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of the enemy, not of the recovered goods, and not of his own substance, because it says in verse 23 "I will take nothing,", and in the setting he was, he didn't go real quick to his own properties and arranged a tithe and came back, while Melchizedek, Abram's army, and the Sodom king was waiting for him. It doesn't make sense that way.

I think he gave the offering acknowledging the priesthood of Melchizedek.

[Tithesmeister]

QUOTE=coksiw;1610251]Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of the enemy, not of the recovered goods, and not of his own substance, because it says in verse 23 "I will take nothing,", and in the setting he was, he didn't go real quick to his own properties and arranged a tithe and came back, while Melchizedek, Abram's army, and the Sodom king was waiting for him. It doesn't make sense that way.

I think he gave the offering acknowledging the priesthood of Melchizedek.[/QUOTE]

Well, if we are going to talk about what we think, but cannot prove with scripture, I have some thoughts. I am reluctant to say this because there is already rampant speculation involving this passage and the mystery of what all really went on and the significance of it all.

Just thinking logically, Melchizedek may have had some political skin in the game. He was a neighbor of the kings that Abram slaughtered. He was obviously friendly to Abram. If Abram had lost the battle to the kings, Melchizedek could have possibly suffered repercussions.

A modern example would be the Vietnam war. The U.S. carpet bombed Cambodia because they suspected that they were allowing North Vietnam to bring supplies through their territory.

So maybe Abram tithed to Melchizedek as a king. Maybe as a priest. Maybe he rewarded him for his loyalty or assistance. The Bible doesn’t say. It does say in Hebrews that the lesser is blessed by the better. So this means that Melchizedek was superior to Abram.

Some have even claimed (because of this) that Melchizedek was a theophany. I see no evidence of this in the Bible. The mystery of Melchizedek has only continued to grow in the Bible. It seems to have increased even to this day. I think the only prudent thing to do is accept that there is a lot we cannot know about Melchizedek but there is no doubt he was a type of Christ.

On thing that does appear verifiable is that Abram tithed of the spoils of war according to Hebrews (not his personal wealth and certainly not his income). Genesis lists the spoils. Money is not included in the list. So, to my knowledge, money is never tithed in the entirety of the Bible, and it is the primary commodity tithed in the modern church.

We have sure drifted a long way from our tithing roots.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I need to open my eyes to something that it was not taught or practiced by the Apostles in the NT? You are the one deviating from God's will, not me.

No, you twisted what we said and twisted the scope of the entire issue.

[mfblume]

If someone gives one-tenth of their income regularly in an offering it is not being under Law. TIUTHE literally means one-tenth. TITHE is not a doctrine it is a tenth. The LAW about tithes goes above and beyond the simple term "tithe", and involves cursing for failure to give. Jus because someone gives a tenth does not mean they believe in the cursing that comes otherwise, neither does it mean that they believe in the intricacies of what was given under tithing law, etc., either.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother,

It is concerning that you quote this verse in a conversation about tithing. It is doubly concerning that you didn’t quote the verse above it to provide context.

You profess to have been wrong before about some doctrine, and have repented of that false doctrine. There is a reason and a definition for the word indoctrination. Carefully consider whether you have been indoctrinated with a doctrine that is false (false meaning inconsistent or contrary to scripture).

So let me lend some color (aka context) to the scripture you posted.

16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Do you see my concerns? The tithe doctrine of the modern apostolic church is typically about saints giving money to the pastor. But this is all about saints giving to saints. Which is about as backward as it can get to typical tithing doctrine of today. Besides of course, this has nothing to do with tithing but is much closer to the giving of alms, which certainly has scriptural support in the post crucifixion NT scripture.

While there's definitely need to help saints out, this was about sending money from one church to another to help problems, which does happen today. Meanwhile, the entire chapter of 1 Cor 9 is about supporting the ministry. I find it interesting that tithing discussions barely mention that context of that chapter.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, you twisted what we said and twisted the scope of the entire issue.

And that's how you plan to dismiss my words. Why don't you prove it please?

Originally Posted by mfblume

If someone gives one-tenth of their income regularly in an offering it is not being under Law. TIUTHE literally means one-tenth. TITHE is not a doctrine it is a tenth. The LAW about tithes goes above and beyond the simple term "tithe", and involves cursing for failure to give. Jus because someone gives a tenth does not mean they believe in the cursing that comes otherwise, neither does it mean that they believe in the intricacies of what was given under tithing law, etc., either.

Tithing teachers use mainly the OT to support tithing of all income in the NT, and that's the discussion at hand. Now you are trying to abstract it out to say tithing teachers are not doing that but instead say that people want to give 1/10 just because is cool? Aren't you tithing teacher using the OT to prove your principle? Don't you see that our point is the gross miss application of the OT tithing (pre or post Moses) to the NT, and how you have to come up with some illegitimate 1/10 principle application to then bring the tithing of all income to the NT? Are you greater than the apostles that taught and talked a lot about money but never found OT tithing applicable in any ways to the NT saints?

Originally Posted by mfblume

While there's definitely need to help saints out, this was about sending money from one church to another to help problems, which does happen today. Meanwhile, the entire chapter of 1 Cor 9 is about supporting the ministry. I find it interesting that tithing discussions barely mention that context of that chapter.

If the text is in a context giving to support the apostles, so what? the apostle Paul decided to switch topics to talk about the support to Jerusalem 7 chapters later. What's your point?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

While there's definitely need to help saints out, this was about sending money from one church to another to help problems, which does happen today. Meanwhile, the entire chapter of 1 Cor 9 is about supporting the ministry. I find it interesting that tithing discussions barely mention that context of that chapter.

While it is true that the chapter you reference is about supporting ministry, it is also true that tithing is not mentioned. Can you admit that?

So in what context is supporting ministry mentioned? Food and drink.

Also Paul said that his reward is that he made the gospel available at no charge. Did you notice that part?

This is an example that Paul set for church leadership. This is not the only place he mentions it.

Meanwhile you exhort Coksiw to open his eyes?! Incredible! And reprehensible. How about you bring scripture to support tithing. Tithing is part of the title of this thread. Giving is not.

Tithing is specific. God ordained it for Israel in the promised land. He did not ordain tithing money. If you believe He did, how about quoting scripture to support your belief?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

BTW, I also disagree with the pastor receiving all the tithe. Most church resources are from tithes that is received. General offerings is usually a much smaller amount. I have seen pastors who seem to thrive while the church general funds are minuscule. I personally believe all tithes and offerings that are undesignated should go into the general church treasury and the pastor should receive a reasonable salary based upon the churches income and expenses. All of this should be approved by a deacon board. If it is a small church, the pastor should just get a job and supplement their income until the church grows to the point of supporting him full time.

Brother,

I have heard many time that this statement has been made. I’m not saying that you’re not special, but these words are not unique. It usually goes like this.

Pastor: “I didn’t even take all of the tithes (implying that they would be justified in doing so).

So I’d like to know, of the nine occurrences of a form of the word pastor in the Bible, could you quote me a single scripture that says being a pastor entitled anyone to a tithe portion, ever?

I’m not aware of any.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

While it is true that the chapter you reference is about supporting ministry, it is also true that tithing is not mentioned. Can you admit that?

Tithing is not taught in New Testament teaching, nor is much of any Mosaic law. As has been discussed on another thread that we are not under the law. For all practical purposes I still teach in the local church they need to have a day of rest each week. Me teaching that people should take a day every week and set it aside for rest is no different as recommending an amount of money. IMO

So in what context is supporting ministry mentioned? Food and drink

.

I don’t believe there is a specific context mentioned, but I believe that all the physical necessities are being implied. It is obvious that Paul depended upon the generosity of others to minister the gospel. Food, shelter, medicine, lodging, transportation, etc… where all things that doubtless Paul received in order to continue on his missionary journey.

Also Paul said that his reward is that he made the gospel available at no charge. Did you notice that part?

This is an example that Paul set for church leadership. This is not the only place he mentions it.

He also said this:

2 Corinthians 11:7-8
-- Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

In order for Paul to preach the gospel freely, someone else had to give.
In reality the gospel isn’t ever free, but it is actually founded upon someone’s sacrifice. We too must move ahead after receiving the gospel.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Meanwhile you exhort Coksiw to open his eyes?! Incredible! And reprehensible. How about you bring scripture to support tithing. Tithing is part of the title of this thread. Giving is not.

Tithing is a singular method of giving. No one has suggested it heaven or hell. One of the problems with tithing is not that it sets the bar too high, but instead it sets it too low. Jesus taught on his sermon on the mount ( Mathew 5) concerning many laws. Each of those laws he extended them further rather then lessening them.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Definition of exceed
transitive verb
1 : to be greater than or superior to
2 : to go beyond a limit set by
exceeded his authority
3 : to extend outside of
the river will exceed its banks

The NT church does not live below the law, but we far surpass it.

Tithing is specific. God ordained it for Israel in the promised land. He did not ordain tithing money. If you believe He did, how about quoting scripture to support your belief?

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

We are not under Mosaic law, but we still are to recognize its example. Israel giving tithes and offerings to support the tabernacle is an example for us to support the ministry of the gospel. Money, food, services, whatever we must support in our local church.