Billy Graham

[JamesGlen]

Briefly, I forgot to mention, speaking of red headed step children...E.B., Is it true, out of 100’s of billions of children that have lived and died young, that there will be none of those children inheriting eternal life, asside from the ones that have obeyed your infallible doctrine, having read and understood the obvious 3 step position to a “T”, that you embrace, spelled out so easily, and understood, in the scriptures?

Please, do explain from the scriptures...

[Amanah]

2 Thessalonians 1:8
8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus.
(The judgment of God is no joke, those who do not obey the gospel will be lost.)
Luke 17:26-27
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
(All people of an accountable age who do not obey the gospel will be lost)
2 Corinthians 5:11-21 King James Version (KJV)
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
(It is our job to preach the gospel and persuade men, women, and children to obey the gospel)
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
(God died for everyone so that they can be saved)
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(If any are lost it is not on God, it’s our responsibility)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Briefly, I forgot to mention, speaking of red headed step children...E.B., Is it true, out of 100’s of billions of children that have lived and died young, that there will be none of those children inheriting eternal life, asside from the ones that have obeyed your infallible doctrine, having read and understood the obvious 3 step position to a “T”, that you embrace, spelled out so easily, and understood, in the scriptures?

Please, do explain from the scriptures...

Just to correct your numbers, as of a 2011 study "only" 107 bilion had ever been born. So, there would not be "100's of billions of children that have lived and died young".
link
http://www.prb.org/Publications/Arti...edonEarth.aspx

Also, I think a better position would have been to show, Bibically, how your doctrine would put them in heaven.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

2 Thessalonians 1:8
8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus.
(The judgment of God is no joke, those who do not obey the gospel will be lost.)
Luke 17:26-27
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
(All people of an accountable age who do not obey the gospel will be lost)
2 Corinthians 5:11-21 King James Version (KJV)
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
(It is our job to preach the gospel and persuade men, women, and children to obey the gospel)
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
(God died for everyone so that they can be saved)
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(If any are lost it is not on God, it’s our responsibility)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Amen Amanah.

We all agree with you. The only problem is, we don't entirely have the same set of definitions. For example we all agree that, "The judgment of God is no joke, those who do not obey the gospel will be lost.".

But "what" is "the Gospel"?

In our view, the Gospel isn't Acts 2:38. Acts 2:38 is the proper "application" of the Gospel. Paul defined "the Gospel":

I Corinthians 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The Gospel (the Good News) is that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again. First, many Christians indeed do believe this. We apply the Gospel through Acts 2:38:

Repentance - Turning from unbelief, sin, and self to belief and faith in Jesus Christ. Those who do so experience justification by faith. (Romans 5:1; Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28).

Water baptism - In being water baptized in His name we are identified with Christ and are buried with Him, cleansing the conscience (Romans 6:4; 1 Peter 3:21)

Holy Ghost - In receiving the Holy Spirit one experiences regeneration and receives power. (Acts 1:8; Titus 3:5)

Those who sincerely repent become JUSTIFIED before God by faith. They stand in Christ's righteousness, meaning they stand in sinlessness before God. This is why people often receive the Holy Spirit immediately after repentance. If this were not true, one couldn't receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism.

The repentant Christian will desire to be obedient. And so they will be water baptized. But what if they are unware of the controversy about formulas? What if the churches in their region are unaware of the controversy of formulas? What if the preacher is unaware of the controversy about formulas? What if they're just your typical run of the mill church? Is God going to not honor their obedience because some "magic formula" wasn't said right? Some say yes... others say no. God is gracious and merciful. God has forgiven far greater sin and error than the mutterings of some preacher. It is believed by many that though the "formula" isn't exactly right, the faith and obedience of the believer is accepted by God and mercy is given with regards to the error. God knows that we are but flesh. We are human beings. We don't know everything. And we have to ask ourselves, Do we really think God will look down on a sincerely repentant soul seeking to be obedient and slam the door in their face because some preacher got some words wrong??? If that's the case, it's the wording of a preacher that ultimately saves us... all Christ did was just put our salvation in man's hands, and we could end up paying for his sin or error without even knowing anything was wrong. But that can't be! Why? God said...

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Those who say that the precious repentant soul seeking to be obedient will be lost because of the error of the preacher are essentially saying that the seeking repentant soul seeking to be obedient will be punished... for the preacher's sinful error! Every man's righteousness will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. The repentant sinner seeking to be obedient will gain far greater reward than the preacher who knows the truth, but clings to his tradition and baptizes that believer incorrectly. The convert WILL NOT bear the sin of the preacher... or God is unjust.

And then there is receiving the Holy Ghost. We all agree that "tongues" are the "evidence" of the Holy Spirit. But dare I say that something can be true, or take place, WITHOUT evidence? There may be no evidence that the government had Kennedy assassinated... but the truth may very well be that they did. Evidence is "normative". We should expect it. But if we don't see the initial evidence we expect, we have to look for additional evidence. Like... fruit. We don't read that the eunuch in Acts 8 spoke in tongues. Now, we can assume that he did or assume that he didn't. But the evidence isn't mentioned in the text. The jailor and his family indeed repented and were baptized, but do we read of any "evidence" in that passage? Nope. I am hesitant to say that something can't be true... just because there is no evidence. Why? Well, consider everything we believe that there is no "evidence" for. Is there "evidence" that every miracle recorded in the Bible actually took place? Nope. But we have "faith" that it did. If a sincere and repentant soul was obedient and baptized, and burns in prayer with groanings, sobbings, unintelligible weeping... are we going to bust in like the Cool-Aid Man and say, "Oh yeah! You need to sound Pentecostal or what's happening to you isn't real!"??? If we have reason to believe that it isn't a normative experience with the evidence of tongues... we should look for the evidence of fruit. Ultimately, God is the judge. We do well not to risk grieving the Spirit's work in someone's life because they didn't bust out with "UNTIE-MY-BOWTIE-WHO-STOLE-A-MY-HONDA!" Let's be open to that still small voice, that stammering utterance in sobbing prayer, that might go undetected.

Some will say that unless one's Christology is correct, they can't truly repent. Think about it... how many "sinners" who repent properly know anything beyond the reality that Jesus was divine and died for them??? Do we now start requiring sinners to attend theology classes BEFORE letting them repent and be water baptized??? That's lunacy. No one really knows a hill of beans when they first come to Christ. So saying that they must have their "Christology" straight is silly.

Notice, in what I wrote above, the sincere and repentant soul repented, was baptized, and filled with the Spirit... even if it wasn't in the manner we would consider is normative. The formula might be off, and manifestation of the Spirit might not look like a Pentecostal "praying through", but their experience is three part and fits the mold presented in Acts 2:38.

And those sincere souls who repent and perish before they can be baptized or filled with the Spirit... will they be denied justification by faith based on circumstances out of their control? Will they be lost for all eternity because of the sin of a drunk driver who kills them before they can get to the water? Would that not be making them pay for the drunk driver's sin???

I'm just saying... I think we do well to contemplate these things and allow God to be the judge.

[Amanah]

Chris, you are much more sophisticated and knowledgeable than I am.
I post in the simplicity of my understanding, and am mainly here to learn.

I equate the gospel as follows:

Death = Repentance
Burial = Baptism
Resurrection = Holy Ghost.

So to obey Acts 2:38, we would repent, be baptized, and be filled with the HG.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Chris, you are much more sophisticated and knowledgeable than I am.
I post in the simplicity of my understanding, and am mainly here to learn.

I equate the gospel as follows:

Death = Repentance
Burial = Baptism
Resurrection = Holy Ghost.

So to obey Acts 2:38, we would repent, be baptized, and be filled with the HG.

I'm not all that bright. Trust me. lol

Amen.

But the question arises, due to thousands of years of tradition, what about those sincere souls who have repented, been baptized, and filled with the Spirit who are still in some degree of human tradition, or who experienced these realities in ways that we might not readily recognize? Will God slam the door in their face over the error of their fathers? An error that they are not even aware of?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm not all that bright. Trust me. lol

Amen.

But the question arises, due to thousands of years of tradition, what about those sincere souls who have repented, been baptized, and filled with the Spirit who are still in some degree of human tradition, or who experienced these realities in ways that we might not readily recognize? Will God slam the door in their face over the error of their fathers? An error that they are not even aware of?

My position is that we can do nothing for the dead, but must preach as Paul preached:

And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:1-2).

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

My position is that we can do nothing for the dead, but must preach as Paul preached:

And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:1-2).

I agree.

When I say that I've prayed that God have mercy on someone who has passed on, it's not be understood as meaning that a prayer can change God's mind. It's simply an expression meaning that I hope that it will be God's will to have mercy on that individual on the day of judgment. And, I let it go and give it to Him. If God has already ruled that a soul is condemned, nothing will change that.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, Satan didn't snuff out the Bible. You just can't handle that people are able to read a Bible. The whole evolution Church goes into apostasy stuff was to prove Pentecostals were legit in the turn of the century because cessationism was the Big Dog in the United States. The men who came up with your little chart got it from other dispensationalist. They taught that speaking in tongues as a movement was the restoration of the church prior to the rapture. That's all you know, because Christianity and its history isn't one of your strong points? But my man, we have a Bible, that's why the New Light Doctrine is stupid. Because we aren't judged by just the light we know, because we have the Bible. If you can't have the Spirit of Truth guide you into all truth, then you are doing something wrong? Right?

Had to repost this because EB nailed it.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, Satan didn't snuff out the Bible. You just can't handle that people are able to read a Bible. The whole evolution Church goes into apostasy stuff was to prove Pentecostals were legit in the turn of the century because cessationism was the Big Dog in the United States. The men who came up with your little chart got it from other dispensationalist. They taught that speaking in tongues as a movement was the restoration of the church prior to the rapture. That's all you know, because Christianity and its history isn't one of your strong points? But my man, we have a Bible, that's why the New Light Doctrine is stupid. Because we aren't judged by just the light we know, because we have the Bible. If you can't have the Spirit of Truth guide you into all truth, then you are doing something wrong? Right?

you are right n david, the Elder nailed it.