Hierarchies are for the World and not the Church

[Apostolic1ness]

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for the watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that the may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for the watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that the may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

We should hold elders in high regard as spiritual fathers, not as infallible lords over God's heritage who command like mini-popes. Church is a spiritual family.

1 Timothy 5:1
Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

What about Ephesians 4:11-12 "And he f gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting g of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

Apparently the Body of Christ can't perfecy and edify itself.

Apparently you don't believe the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are part of the body of Christ. What do you think they are, the head?

Ephesians 4

[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

If they aren't part of the body, they aren't going to heaven. Jesus is the head of the church.You say that the body evidently can't edify itself. Verse 16 above says that the body edifies itself.

HMMM . . . I think I'll go with what the Bible says on this.

[CalledOut238]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Your argument is moot. Because all you keep talking about is people lording over the flock. Which is something your adding to the conversation but no one is in anyway, endorsing. And like someone would endorse that, and be like "you know what I want? A pastor who Lord's over me." Said no one ever.

The thing is you keep going to Strong's definitions which are very vague. But Thayers definitions are very specific, and show that these positions indicate a higher status.

If the scripture says someone "is worthy of double honour" and in another spot says "all men are worthy of honour", then what is the scripture relaying to us? They elders are doubly worthy of honour, not to Lord over the flock but they have a pre eminence. I mean if someone is compared to a flock of sheep, and someone compared to a shepherd of the sheep by definition, what is being said? It's not rocket science. It's very simple.

That's not saying someone is to be Lord over anyone. But the Bible gave these symbols and comparisons and made these illustrations for a reason. You can just say well that's not what it meant, but the scripture is plain and clear. You can teach whatever you like, but what your teaching is not based wholly upon scripture. At best it's taking parts of scripture, and making them incongruent with the full panoramic view of scripture. All I can say is you should be the test subject on starting a church that works that way. Then let us know how it works out, because theoretically it sounds great, but there's only one way to find out.. Until then, it's nothing more then a hypothesis. If it is the way God has prescribed it will flourish; If not, cut the lifeboats and brace yourself for the impact, Because she's going down... Although, there's only one way to find out. So when you put it in place for real, keep us posted. We are all very interested.

Your words are screaming off the screen and it apparent you're angry. You can keep your pulpit and whip all those sheep into shape Master! Giddy up Sheep giddy up!



Using the argument that there are more of us than you; didn’t work to well for the people in Noah’s day, nor will it work today. I could try to teach you Paul polemical purpose of using metaphors of the Body of Christ, but it is apparent Chosen knows Best. Though you may be chosen there is only ONE LORD!

Deuteronomy 4:24(KJV) For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Selah

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Or 1Timothy 5:17-19 "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. [19] Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses."
If Peter says in 1 Peter 2:17 that "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."

So we see we are to give all men Honour. Yet "the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double hoour[/B]" then what is that saying to you?

To me this is saying that the elders who rule well are worthy of double honour (as in pay, support or other compensation). If you look up above in verse three of the same chapter, we are instructed to honour the widows, who are widows indeed. So, we honor the widow, and the elser that rules well is worthy of double honor, and all men are worthy of honor. The elder who rules well is worthy of twice as much honor as the widow, or other men.

So how much are we supporting our widows?

Elders that rule well are entitled to twice as much as our widows.

I'm glad I could clear that up for you.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Your argument is moot. Because all you keep talking about is people lording over the flock. Which is something your adding to the conversation but no one is in anyway, endorsing. And like someone would endorse that, and be like "you know what I want? A pastor who Lord's over me." Said no one ever.

Yes, because, like Jesus, our leaders are servant leaders (Matthew 20:20-28), not Lording over us. But we are told to obey them (Hebrews 13:17).

Just like husbands are servant leaders, laying down their lives for their wives out of love, like Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:25). And wives are told to obey their husbands (Ephesians 5:22). Same principle.

It is about love and respect.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

In itself the world translated as "Elder" comes from the Greek Word "presbuteros".
Which is defined by Thayer as "term of rank or office, among the Jews members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men), of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice,
among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably."

Or an "Apostle" which comes from the Greek Word "apostolos". Which is defined by Thayer as "a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders"

Or "Pastor" which comes from the Greek Word "poimēn" Which is defined by Thayer as "shepherd, the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies."

It seems to me that dear ol' King James sure wasted a lot of time and effort translating the Bible. I mean he should have left it in the Greek and Hebrew languages. Instead he translated into English, which of course means it is necessary for us to translate it back into Greek or whatever, so we can then translate it BACK into English, because you know, we are ALL such intellectuals and linguists. Then, after we translate back into Greek or Hebrew and re-translate it back into English we then can interpret it as we see fit. It is a wonder it is even recognizable when we get through butchering it (and it often is unrecognizable, sometimes I think that is the point).

So King James had forty seven scholars and linguists spend some seven years exercise painstaking care to translate the Bible into the language of the common man, just so common man could translate it back into the original languages and then re-translate it back into English, because we hafta get it right.


SAD!

[Amanah]

the problem is that words become obsolete or their meanings shift over time, the KJV version was translated in 1611.

https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/kjvwords.html

[Aquila]

What is one to do if a pastor asks one's wife for sex, telling her she is to "obey" him because he looks after her soul... and after she tells her husband, he confronts that pastor, and he tells him that he's the pastor, and if he's ever in the wrong, they are to still obey, but take it to God? And when the man insists that the pastor was out of line, he says, "No one will ever believe you anyway."???

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What is one to do if a pastor asks one's wife for sex, telling her she is to "obey" him because he looks after her soul... and after she tells her husband, he confronts that pastor, and he tells him that he's the pastor, and if he's ever in the wrong, they are to still obey, but take it to God? And when the man insists that the pastor was out of line, he says, "No one will ever believe you anyway."???

No women are not brainless idiots.

Abigail comes to mind. (1 Sam 25)

23 And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground,

24 And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid.

25 Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send.

26 Now therefore, my lord, as the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the Lord hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal.

https://www.thoughtco.com/abigail-and-david-116669