It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

It seems that in your theology, it is possible, though unlikely, nevertheless possible for a person to be righteous on their own.

Suppose someone did that. Hypothetically.

Would that be bad? Or good?

Think about it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

How do you explain how the Bible presents the effects of Adam's disobedience vs. Jesus Christ's obedience?

I explain is as it is written. How do you explain it?

Suppose we say that all Adam's folks are automatically sinners, "because Adam". So then, they are sinners without regard to their actions. They could do EVERYTHING right, but are still sinners bound for hell.

Well, the corollary applies: All Christ's folks are saints, bound for glory, REGARDLESS OF THEIR ACTIONS. OSAS, in other words.

Suppose we say Adam brought death upon all men by an involuntary process of inheritance of his sinfulness. Well then, Christ brought life to all men by an involuntary process of inheritance of His righteousness. In other words, universalism.

The Bible says death passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED (Romans 5:12).

Romans 5:19 says FOR AS by Adam's disobedience many were made sinners, SO by the obedience of Christ shall many be made righteous. The "for as... so" demonstrates a continuity between the two. In the same way, or in similar fashion, in other words. How are many made righteous by Christ's obedience?

It cannot be involuntary, otherwise faith and repentance are unnecessary to justification.

Rather, Christ obeyed God, making him (Christ) the author of eternal life, the occasion by which eternal life is made available to us. Adam's disobedience brought death, and sin, into the world, his disobedience is the occasion which makes sin available to us. His disobedience introduced sin (transgression of God's commands) to the world, and we have all of us said "Yes" to it. If however we say "Yes" to Christ and salvation, we enjoy His gift of righteousness and eternal life.

Traditions have added to and read into the Word what is not there.

WHOEVER commits sin transgresses the law, BECAUSE sin IS the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Question: what law is transgressed by being born, or by being born as a human? Answer: NONE.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

It seems that in your theology, it is possible, though unlikely, nevertheless possible for a person to be righteous on their own.

JD, tell me what these verses actually mean?

1 John 3:3

So all people who have this confidence in Christ keep themselves pure, as pure as Christ.

1 John 3:7

Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.

Looking forward to see what you come up with.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I explain is as it is written. How do you explain it?

Suppose we say that all Adam's folks are automatically sinners, "because Adam". So then, they are sinners without regard to their actions. They could do EVERYTHING right, but are still sinners bound for hell.

Well, the corollary applies: All Christ's folks are saints, bound for glory, REGARDLESS OF THEIR ACTIONS. OSAS, in other words.

Suppose we say Adam brought death upon all men by an involuntary process of inheritance of his sinfulness. Well then, Christ brought life to all men by an involuntary process of inheritance of His righteousness. In other words, universalism.

The Bible says death passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED (Romans 5:12).

Romans 5:19 says FOR AS by Adam's disobedience many were made sinners, SO by the obedience of Christ shall many be made righteous. The "for as... so" demonstrates a continuity between the two. In the same way, or in similar fashion, in other words. How are many made righteous by Christ's obedience?

It cannot be involuntary, otherwise faith and repentance are unnecessary to justification.

Rather, Christ obeyed God, making him (Christ) the author of eternal life, the occasion by which eternal life is made available to us. Adam's disobedience brought death, and sin, into the world, his disobedience is the occasion which makes sin available to us. His disobedience introduced sin (transgression of God's commands) to the world, and we have all of us said "Yes" to it. If however we say "Yes" to Christ and salvation, we enjoy His gift of righteousness and eternal life.

Traditions have added to and read into the Word what is not there.

WHOEVER commits sin transgresses the law, BECAUSE sin IS the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Question: what law is transgressed by being born, or by being born as a human? Answer: NONE.

Ezekiel 18:20 tells us that father Adam's sins couldn't be required by his descendants. Romans 14:12 tells us that we must give our own account, meaning we stand alone. We are to be blamed, and judged for what we do.
1 John 3:4 explains that all those who practice sin, and we are saved through trusting in the Lord. Mark 16:16 says he who trusts and is baptized. We will all day long disprove infant baptism with Mark 16:16, because a infant cannot put his trust or believe in Christ. But when the Catholic argues that the infant is in a state of sin, people tend to fabricate a refutation. Age of accountability? But, the age of accountability flips and flops if you are sin filled infant. Isaiah 7:15 is saying, that by the time a child is old enough to choose what is right and reject what is wrong, he will be eating yogurt and honey. They understood that honey and fermented diary couldn't be digested by an infant. Therefore infants can't discern between right or wrong and can't be held accountable for their works.

[mfblume]

Sin and righteousness are deep issues. Paul spoke of sin as a force we are born with. He distinguished SIN from SIN(S) throughout Romans 6 and 7.

I think the proper way to explain Adam's part in this is that he caused us to be born with the force of sin in us. We did not commit sin in Adam but were born with the force of sin due to Adam.

In order to understand how sin is involved with us at our births, we have to thing of how we are righteous in Christ. Our actions do not directly make us righteous, otherwise we are saved by works.

While some worry that universalism will ensue if we believe Adam made us sinners, then by the same token there is the other concern that salvation is by works if we believe we make ourselves sinners. There are two very wrong extremes.

1. OSAS and universalism.

2. Salvation by works.

1. If we say the way Adam made us sinners is how Christ makes us righteous, without any voluntary choice in the matter on our parts, then that is OSAS or also can be universalism.

2. If we say we make ourselves sinners by our acts of sin, then we have to say we make ourselves righteous by our works, which is salvation by works.

Now do know Adam made us sinners by his disobedience. Romans clearly says it was not our disobedience that caused us to be sinners. It was Adam's. And it was not our obedience that caused us to be made righteous... it was Christ's.

But to avoid the error of universalism/OSAS and salvation by works, I believe we have to notice Paul is speaking from the perspective of being born naturally in Adam and being born again in Christ! Romans 6:3 says only the amount of people who were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death. We have to get into his death by our own volition and choice. FROM THAT POINT, Christ's obedience makes us righteous, as Adam's work made us sinners. In other words, Ro 5:19 has to be understood by light of Romans 6:3.

That is why the MANY in Ro 6:3 is the same MANY in Romans 5:19. And Romans goes on to talk about the FORCE of sin we are born with being something we cannot resist. So, the force is born inside us. And when we give in to it and actually commit sin we are responsible for it.

And being born a sinner is a positional issue, just as being born again makes us righteous positionally. But we can be righteous positionally and never do righteous deeds, just as an infant is born a sinner but does not commit sins. The deeds aspect of it all is distinct from the positional aspect. And I think that has something to do with why it is said we are born sinners due to Adam's disobedience.

So, how does one avoid salvation by works if one thinks Adam did not positionally make us sinful before we committed one single sin?

I think Romans 5:12 says "for that all have sinned" because it is saying we are considered to have sinned when Adam did. But we did not actually commit a sin. God still sees us as sinners. In other words, Romans 5:12 can be understood as saying, "because Adam brought sin into the world, and death along with it, it is as though all of us sinned." Or, "For that reason all have sinned."

Thoughts?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

No. Sin is the transgression of the law, and there is no law against being born, nor is there any law against being born a homo sapiens.

However, as noted earlier, there is a sense in which a Gentile was de facto a "sinner" simply by being a Gentile, but that's a Covenantal issue, not a strictly moral issue.

The act of sin is distinct from the force of sin. There are two definitions for the word "sin," and Romans 6-7 is speaking of the force while the word is be used in the sense of a verb when it is speaking of the act.

[mfblume]

One guy explained it like this:

The Judicial View: According to this position, all persons were “made sinners” and “made righteous” in the same sense—judicially. That is, both Christ and Adam were our legal representatives. And while in Adam all his race were before God made sinners officially, nonetheless, in Christ all are officially made righteous, though not actually and personally. And just as every person, when they come to the age of accountability (see comments on 2 Sam. 12:23 and Rom. 5:14), must personally sin to be personally guilty, even so everyone must personally accept Christ to be personally saved. Christ removed the official and judicial guilt that was imputed to the race because of Adam’s sin. This does not mean that everyone is actually saved, but only that they are no longer legally condemned.

I think this seems to be more correct. There seems to be a parallel between our position in Christ and in Adam. Paul said he was alive without (apart from) the law at one point, and when he was presented with the commandment he sinned. I think this refers to being come to the age of accountability. Jews were not considered to be under law until bar-mitzvah or bat-mitzvah. I think this is what Paul referred to. And this plays into the overall question. Our baptisms are like the counterpart of bar-mitzvah.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by mfblume

One guy explained it like this:

The Judicial View: According to this position, all persons were “made sinners” and “made righteous” in the same sense—judicially. That is, both Christ and Adam were our legal representatives. And while in Adam all his race were before God made sinners officially, nonetheless, in Christ all are officially made righteous, though not actually and personally. And just as every person, when they come to the age of accountability (see comments on 2 Sam. 12:23 and Rom. 5:14), must personally sin to be personally guilty, even so everyone must personally accept Christ to be personally saved. Christ removed the official and judicial guilt that was imputed to the race because of Adam’s sin. This does not mean that everyone is actually saved, but only that they are no longer legally condemned.

I think this seems to be more correct. There seems to be a parallel between our position in Christ and in Adam. Paul said he was alive without (apart from) the law at one point, and when he was presented with the commandment he sinned. I think this refers to being come to the age of accountability. Jews were not considered to be under law until bar-mitzvah or bat-mitzvah. I think this is what Paul referred to. And this plays into the overall question. Our baptisms are like the counterpart of bar-mitzvah.

I think this is a great explanation

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

JD, tell me what these verses actually mean?

1 John 3:3

So all people who have this confidence in Christ keep themselves pure, as pure as Christ.

1 John 3:7

Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.

Looking forward to see what you come up with.

What is there to say? These scriptures are plain.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sin and righteousness are deep issues. Paul spoke of sin as a force we are born with. He distinguished SIN from SIN(S) throughout Romans 6 and 7.

I think the proper way to explain Adam's part in this is that he caused us to be born with the force of sin in us. We did not commit sin in Adam but were born with the force of sin due to Adam.

In order to understand how sin is involved with us at our births, we have to thing of how we are righteous in Christ. Our actions do not directly make us righteous, otherwise we are saved by works.

While some worry that universalism will ensue if we believe Adam made us sinners, then by the same token there is the other concern that salvation is by works if we believe we make ourselves sinners. There are two very wrong extremes.

1. OSAS and universalism.

2. Salvation by works.

1. If we say the way Adam made us sinners is how Christ makes us righteous, without any voluntary choice in the matter on our parts, then that is OSAS or also can be universalism.

2. If we say we make ourselves sinners by our acts of sin, then we have to say we make ourselves righteous by our works, which is salvation by works.

Now do know Adam made us sinners by his disobedience. Romans clearly says it was not our disobedience that caused us to be sinners. It was Adam's. And it was not our obedience that caused us to be made righteous... it was Christ's.

But to avoid the error of universalism/OSAS and salvation by works, I believe we have to notice Paul is speaking from the perspective of being born naturally in Adam and being born again in Christ! Romans 6:3 says only the amount of people who were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death. We have to get into his death by our own volition and choice. FROM THAT POINT, Christ's obedience makes us righteous, as Adam's work made us sinners. In other words, Ro 5:19 has to be understood by light of Romans 6:3.

That is why the MANY in Ro 6:3 is the same MANY in Romans 5:19. And Romans goes on to talk about the FORCE of sin we are born with being something we cannot resist. So, the force is born inside us. And when we give in to it and actually commit sin we are responsible for it.

And being born a sinner is a positional issue, just as being born again makes us righteous positionally. But we can be righteous positionally and never do righteous deeds, just as an infant is born a sinner but does not commit sins. The deeds aspect of it all is distinct from the positional aspect. And I think that has something to do with why it is said we are born sinners due to Adam's disobedience.

So, how does one avoid salvation by works if one thinks Adam did not positionally make us sinful before we committed one single sin?

I think Romans 5:12 says "for that all have sinned" because it is saying we are considered to have sinned when Adam did. But we did not actually commit a sin. God still sees us as sinners. In other words, Romans 5:12 can be understood as saying, "because Adam brought sin into the world, and death along with it, it is as though all of us sinned." Or, "For that reason all have sinned."

Thoughts?

The Book of Romans emphasizes the absolute sinfulness of sin and our absolute inability to absolve ourselves from sin on our own and salvation by the Grace of God through our faith in God.