25 Year Anniversary - Page 6

shazeep · #51 10-13-2016, 03:17 PM

this is the type of agreement i think we are to seek; this other, lock-step this is disturbing at the very least.

Jito463 · #52 10-13-2016, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

And it was not my experience that changed me, but study of the Word. One thing that I have never seen, is what happened on the Day of Pentecost - on the day of Pentecost, everyone spoke in actual languages that people from all over the world could understand.

I have never in my life heard anyone speak in an actual understandable language when first receiving the gift of tongues. Yet, I have heard the unknown language that is the unknown tongue gift that comes as a gift from God. The passage below is where Paul acknowledges that the gift of tongues is an unknown tongue... so how can that be the same thing that happened at Pentecost where everyone understood the language being spoken?

This is a conundrum no one wants to admit to in OP circles.

No conundrum for me. God will work as He will.

First off, just because we can't understand what someone is saying when they speak in tongues, does not mean the language is not understandable. It just means we can't understand it. I've certainly heard of instances where people who spoke a foreign language, heard someone speaking in tongues in their native language. Though I haven't experienced it, I also don't know any other languages but English (unless you count a smattering of other words), nor do I hang around many other people who don't speak English.

Second, God wanted a demonstration that would reveal His power and glory to all on that first outpouring of His Spirit. What better demonstration, than having "ignorant" people suddenly begin speaking in a language that they wouldn't have otherwise known, while people from all over were there to hear it?

I don't know what OP's you're hanging around with, but I've never heard anyone have an issue with that aspect, and neither do I.

Evang.Benincasa · #53 10-13-2016, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I really agree wholeheartedly with you, that our experience should not trump the Word of God.

And it was not my experience that changed me, but study of the Word. One thing that I have never seen, is what happened on the Day of Pentecost - on the day of Pentecost, everyone spoke in actual languages that people from all over the world could understand.

I have never in my life heard anyone speak in an actual understandable language when first receiving the gift of tongues. Yet, I have heard the unknown language that is the unknown tongue gift that comes as a gift from God. The passage below is where Paul acknowledges that the gift of tongues is an unknown tongue... so how can that be the same thing that happened at Pentecost where everyone understood the language being spoken?

This is a conundrum no one wants to admit to in OP circles.

1 Cor. 14:4-19
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1st Corinthians 14 is dealing with ministers addressing a congregation in the gift of tongues. Reason why they are told to remain silent if no interpreter is there. Acts 2 not everyone could understand the language being spoke on the day of Pentecost. Only the Devout could understand (Acts 2:5,) the Others mocking thought the men were drunk (Acts 2:13.) Slurring and babbling, while the devout could hear as clear as a bell.

Pressing-On · #54 10-13-2016, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

1st Corinthians 14 is dealing with ministers addressing a congregation in the gift of tongues. Reason why they are told to remain silent if no interpreter is there. Acts 2 not everyone could understand the language being spoke on the day of Pentecost. Only the Devout could understand (Acts 2:5,) the Others mocking thought the men were drunk (Acts 2:13.) Slurring and babbling, while the devout could hear as clear as a bell.

It's not because they were "devout". It was because they came from other nations ("every nation under heaven") and were living in Jerusalem. Thus, they were acquainted with the languages spoken on the Day of Pentecost. See how precise God is? He set that deal up nicely.

And, yes, I agree with you on I Cor. 14 dealing with ministers instructing a congregation on the gift of tongues.

We know these two are the self-same spirit, yet different operations. The reason we know that the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost was NOT Tongues and Interpretation, is because 120 interpretations would need to follow - at best, 60 or 40 if by two or three.

Pressing-On · #55 10-13-2016, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

And PO... I dearly love and respect you too ... I meant to say that in my previous post... and I know we may never agree on this issue, but I respect what you believe and hold to. Just sharing my thoughts on the issue.

Evang.Benincasa · #56 10-13-2016, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It's not because they were "devout". It was because they came from other nations ("every nation under heaven") and were living in Jerusalem. Thus, they were acquainted with the languages spoken on the Day of Pentecost. See how precise God is? He set that deal up nicely

Two groups, one understood, the others didn't.

Everyone who was there devout, and other than devout, were from every nation under heaven. All were part of the Diaspora making their pilgrimage for the feast.

Pressing-On · #57 10-13-2016, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Two groups, one understood, the others didn't.

Everyone who was there devout, and other than devout, were from every nation under heaven. All were part of the Diaspora making their pilgrimage for the feast.

Were the devout men the "multitude" that heard their own language?

Evang.Benincasa · #58 10-13-2016, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Were the devout men the "multitude" that heard their own language?

Others were who?

The apostles?

The Romans?

KeptByTheWord · #59 10-14-2016, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

1st Corinthians 14 is dealing with ministers addressing a congregation in the gift of tongues. Reason why they are told to remain silent if no interpreter is there. Acts 2 not everyone could understand the language being spoke on the day of Pentecost. Only the Devout could understand (Acts 2:5,) the Others mocking thought the men were drunk (Acts 2:13.) Slurring and babbling, while the devout could hear as clear as a bell.

Saying that only the devout could understand the languages being spoken is NOT what scripture says at all... it says "all" "they were ALL amazed and marvelled"... What part of "all" don't you get, lol...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

1st Corinthians 14 is dealing with ministers addressing a congregation in the gift of tongues. Reason why they are told to remain silent if no interpreter is there

The chapter on charity precedes this chapter, and then moves into "Follow after charity"... so Paul is addressing all who are reading this passage, not just a few select people. The term "brethren" was a term used to address whoever was listening.

If I put it into the context you give it... are only brethren supposed to follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts, and no one else? Lol...

And as far as the tongues being dealt with in 1 Cor... Corinthians is the ONLY book outside of the book of Acts that deals with tongues. This is the only chance we have, outside the book of Acts to understand how tongues worked in the early church.

It is quite obvious from 1 Cor. 12:30-31 that tongues are a "gift". Not everyone is an apostle, a prophet, a teacher, a worker of miracles, a healer, speak with tongues, or interpreter.

Nowhere in these two passages in Cor. does Paul demonstrate that if you don't have the gift of tongues, you are not saved.

It is for this reason that I stand in Sherri's camp. Yes, tongues are a gift that can be given by God to those who desire it.

Yet Paul says that there is something greater than apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers, healers, tongues, and interpreters.... and that is charity!

We are to earnestly covet the gifts listed, but there is a more excellent way! What is that way? Charity.

Charity is greater than tongues, as Paul demonstrates in that passage.

Paul then goes on to list how the gift of unknown tongues ought to operate in the church, for those who have the gift. Then Paul says

1 Cor. 14: 18-19
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

He is demonstrating that the gift of tongues is great, but that it is better to interpret in the church setting so all can understand, making it quite obvious that the gift of tongues is not one that all understand, but there also needs to be the gift of interpretation at work.

This does not correlate with the Acts 2 setting where all men knew and understood the languages that were being spoken.

So this is why I cannot in all good faith tell someone that if they do not have the gift of tongues, they are "hell bound". Tongues very clearly is shown to be a gift of God by Paul in several different ways, and that charity is to be desired above all the gifts given to the church.

KeptByTheWord · #60 10-14-2016, 09:51 AM

And of course the best way to demonstrate that tongues are not salvational is the one scripture that the OP stands on, which is Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking with other tongues."

Tongue-in-cheek of course, because the passage here just DOES NOT say that although I have heard many OP interject that into this scripture.

What must we do? Repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Nowhere is "tongues" mentioned there. Sorry, not there!

Did they speak with tongues? Yes, they did, but we know they spoke with tongues that could be understood. Yet Paul said the gift of tongues is an "unknown tongue" and not one that can be understood, hence the need for an interpreter in the church setting.

So tying Acts 2:38 in with having to speak with tongues as salvational, is quite simply not supported by scripture, and borders on false teaching to tell people they must have the gift of tongues to be saved.

Do I speak in tongues? Yes, I do. It is a beautiful gift from the Lord, and I treasure the times I have had in the spirit, communing with the Lord. But nowhere in scripture am I commanded to speak in tongues to be saved... it is an after-product, or a by-product of being a child of God, and is a gift that God gives to us if we desire it, as are any of the other gifts in the church (1 Cor. 12:29-31) to be highly desired and sought after, but the gift of CHARITY is the greatest.

Charity should be the gift that we teach and preach that we must have and need, above all others.