left upci yr ago and still messed up

[Jay]

I lived in Kansas for nearly 9 years. I have lived and traveled in Illinois for 10, and I lived in Texas for 8 years. That is not the sum total of my age, and Illinois would actually be closer to 12 years if you count my being born here. These are not exact years for obvious reasons.

[AreYouReady?]

Have you ever lived in the tiny towns of the deep south?

[Jay]

Deep south is a situation that I would love to visit, but have not yet had the pleasure. Are you saying that there is a difference between the rural areas of Kansas, Texas, Missouri, Illinois, and Iowa and those in the Deep South?

[AreYouReady?]

When I moved from the northern midwest to the small town deep south, I was in culture shock. I had to learn the "language" of the people. I had to learn how these people think. I found out why many of the native locals really dislike northerners. I have never encountered a place like where I am at... and I lived in several places. I am a northern big city girl living in southern rural country places now. God has placed me here and it has been a learning experience.

Now are the churches here that much different than rural northern towns or towns in Texas? Apparently not since Randy Wayne and T2W described basically the same thing as I experienced down here. While you described that you are in leadership positions and you grew up with your parents in leadership positions, you have very little idea what the people who are walk in saints from another religion think and feel about this deep inside themselves. You were raised in this from a little child I presume? If not then I apologize for presuming that you were.

I was born and raised in the Catholic religion. I do not call it a denomination of Christianity. Maybe someday I will explain this more thoroughly. There is a vast difference and I had to change my entire concept of who God is and release what I've learned all my life and relearn what little of the Bible I did actually learn. I solely had to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me into truth. Believe it or not, some UPC saints hindered that process.

Did I have a problem with the standards when I first came to an OP church? No. I have a genuine experience with Christ and I researched out which church denomination I wanted to attend and get baptized in when the Holy Spirit drew me to God. I thought that standards were not necessary things for salvation, but I took the mindset, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". I did it primarily to fit in...to be accepted by the other UPC members. I was shown select scriptures and the implication was there to dress like all the other women. I became "pentecostal" when "God told me to take off my pants and not cut my hair". You see it was important to the people that I voiced those words so that my doing these things would not be construed as me being pushed into it. Sadly, I really thought at the time God told me to do these things, but I admit that I never actually heard His voice say it. It really was much easier to blend in than to buck the system UPC has concerning standards. And yes, people who just come into UPC are given a "grace period" to conform.
You may not agree with this but remember, you are on the other end of my spectrum.

When did I really start to turn against the physical standards they preached? When I saw my fellow brothers and sisters looking the pious pentecostal part while in services, but made fun of their fellow sisters behind their back over various things that were none of their business. I once asked them if they did not think that what they were saying about people might hurt their feelings if they knew? The answer was not that *we should not make fun of our sisters behind their back* but it was "They will never know what we said". This turned me off.

I was single at the time and shared living expenses with some of the sisters in leadership positions in church. One was a slob at home, never picking up after herself and expecting (not asking) others to do her share of the house chores. She said she hated anything false, but yet she took her "home mask" off and put on her "church mask" on Sundays and Wednesdays and everybody thought she was just soooo spiritual. Reality: She was simply a human being with all her faults just like the rest of us.

Pentecostal women gossip and ostracize people more than UPC wants to admit. It is because most of them are so unhappy with themselves that they have to criticize other female saints in the church that are not like them. It was years after I entered the UPC that I realized the name of the denomination, nor the dress standards one wishes to adhere to does not make that person a follower of Christ. What good are the standards when one does not have the Christian love for their fellow brother or sister simply because they have different views or a different physical appearance? Christ did not command us to love one another as long as we agreed or had similar viewpoints. We are to love one another despite our differences. That is how the world knows that we are disciples of Christ.

The one thing that I have noticed in both institutions was the love of money seems to be the greater love over the love of their fellow brothers and sisters. I am sure that somewhere there is a church that doesn't wham the tithe and the giving of legal tender over and over and equate it with salvation... but that would be a rare church indeed.

[AreYouReady?]

Oh and BTW, visiting rural towns in the deep south is NOT the same and living and experiencing life here. You will get a hearty, deep south hospitality welcome, but that ends when you actually live here and do not conform.

[Arphaxad]

I left the UPC church I was at (for almost 6 yrs) 2 weeks ago. You can guess some of the reasons if you remember that drunken rant I posted a month ago that got me banned from here for a while. When I told the pastor I was resigning from all ministry positions and leaving he almost convinced me to stay, but when I told him my mind was made up it got kind of ugly.
I never got real close with anyone there, and none of my family is upc so its been real easy for me, I don't really miss anything. I still have the HG, still pray, study the Bible, speak in tongues, holiness standards didn't affect me since I'm a guy(but i never fully agreed on the no pants for women, long= uncut hair doctrine, total abscence of jewlery and make-up, but just went along for it to not cause trouble).
Anyways I do all the things I did when i was there, just at a different church. Yeah, I've "gone charasmatic."

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

When I moved from the northern midwest to the small town deep south, I was in culture shock. I had to learn the "language" of the people. I had to learn how these people think. I found out why many of the native locals really dislike northerners. I have never encountered a place like where I am at... and I lived in several places. I am a northern big city girl living in southern rural country places now. God has placed me here and it has been a learning experience.

Now are the churches here that much different than rural northern towns or towns in Texas? Apparently not since Randy Wayne and T2W described basically the same thing as I experienced down here. While you described that you are in leadership positions and you grew up with your parents in leadership positions, you have very little idea what the people who are walk in saints from another religion think and feel about this deep inside themselves. You were raised in this from a little child I presume? If not then I apologize for presuming that you were.

I was born and raised in the Catholic religion. I do not call it a denomination of Christianity. Maybe someday I will explain this more thoroughly. There is a vast difference and I had to change my entire concept of who God is and release what I've learned all my life and relearn what little of the Bible I did actually learn. I solely had to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me into truth. Believe it or not, some UPC saints hindered that process.

Did I have a problem with the standards when I first came to an OP church? No. I have a genuine experience with Christ and I researched out which church denomination I wanted to attend and get baptized in when the Holy Spirit drew me to God. I thought that standards were not necessary things for salvation, but I took the mindset, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". I did it primarily to fit in...to be accepted by the other UPC members. I was shown select scriptures and the implication was there to dress like all the other women. I became "pentecostal" when "God told me to take off my pants and not cut my hair". You see it was important to the people that I voiced those words so that my doing these things would not be construed as me being pushed into it. Sadly, I really thought at the time God told me to do these things, but I admit that I never actually heard His voice say it. It really was much easier to blend in than to buck the system UPC has concerning standards. And yes, people who just come into UPC are given a "grace period" to conform.
You may not agree with this but remember, you are on the other end of my spectrum.

When did I really start to turn against the physical standards they preached? When I saw my fellow brothers and sisters looking the pious pentecostal part while in services, but made fun of their fellow sisters behind their back over various things that were none of their business. I once asked them if they did not think that what they were saying about people might hurt their feelings if they knew? The answer was not that *we should not make fun of our sisters behind their back* but it was "They will never know what we said". This turned me off.

I was single at the time and shared living expenses with some of the sisters in leadership positions in church. One was a slob at home, never picking up after herself and expecting (not asking) others to do her share of the house chores. She said she hated anything false, but yet she took her "home mask" off and put on her "church mask" on Sundays and Wednesdays and everybody thought she was just soooo spiritual. Reality: She was simply a human being with all her faults just like the rest of us.

Pentecostal women gossip and ostracize people more than UPC wants to admit. It is because most of them are so unhappy with themselves that they have to criticize other female saints in the church that are not like them. It was years after I entered the UPC that I realized the name of the denomination, nor the dress standards one wishes to adhere to does not make that person a follower of Christ. What good are the standards when one does not have the Christian love for their fellow brother or sister simply because they have different views or a different physical appearance? Christ did not command us to love one another as long as we agreed or had similar viewpoints. We are to love one another despite our differences. That is how the world knows that we are disciples of Christ.

The one thing that I have noticed in both institutions was the love of money seems to be the greater love over the love of their fellow brothers and sisters. I am sure that somewhere there is a church that doesn't wham the tithe and the giving of legal tender over and over and equate it with salvation... but that would be a rare church indeed.

ARY: Thank you for sharing your story with us. I can relate to so much of what you said too. I hope Jay (and others) can see that things can be much different on the "other" side of the pulpit.

It is encouraging to know that there are others out there fighting the same battles, and still loving the Lord with all their hearts too. I think that is why AFF has become so important to many of us. We can identify with places and situations others have been in, and there is strength in knowing you are not alone.

KRT... if you're still reading... just remember to keep your focus on Jesus and let the Word of God be the only measuring stick you own, and the puzzle pieces will come into focus in their own time.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

I left the UPC church I was at (for almost 6 yrs) 2 weeks ago. You can guess some of the reasons if you remember that drunken rant I posted a month ago that got me banned from here for a while. When I told the pastor I was resigning from all ministry positions and leaving he almost convinced me to stay, but when I told him my mind was made up it got kind of ugly.
I never got real close with anyone there, and none of my family is upc so its been real easy for me, I don't really miss anything. I still have the HG, still pray, study the Bible, speak in tongues, holiness standards didn't affect me since I'm a guy(but i never fully agreed on the no pants for women, long= uncut hair doctrine, total abscence of jewlery and make-up, but just went along for it to not cause trouble).
Anyways I do all the things I did when i was there, just at a different church. Yeah, I've "gone charasmatic."

I'm glad you've found another church to attend. Things get pretty rough sometimes, and the "pendulum" can swing pretty wildly for a while as you try to sort things out in your mind. Will be praying for you as you work through all of this... it can take a while. But keeping your focus on Jesus and the Word of God... and not on people will help... a lot!

[Jay]

I feel for your situation. I am sorry that you saw people who were not qualified for leadership roles. I have not said that I was in leadership, however I have been around leadership. I am aware that sometimes carnal people can rise to positions of leadership, and not always do people use their best judgment. This is partly a result of people being foolish or carnal. As long as there are imperfect people in the church, they will not behave perfectly. The other thing that could have been done would be to decline the opportunity to associate with these ladies very much.

I will admit to not having known all that there is, however this carnality is indicative of a lack of prayer and compassion. You were right and they in the wrong. Gossip like that does get back to people.

As for standards, only very rarely do people actually 'hear the voice of God' concerning these things. Generally it comes through study of the Word, prayer, and education. I do know that many times women (not sure why most men seem to fall in line with the possible exception of sleeves) will naturally start letting their hair grow, put away makeup and jewelry, and move toward skirts all the time. This is not always true as people advance at different speeds. I knew ladies that took nearly 6 months before they stopped wearing jewelry entirely, and on the other end some have quit within a short time and not understood why they had felt condemnation wearing it. The first was taught, and the other felt and then was taught. The learning curve is unique to all, even those who were raised in the church.

Standardsl do not remain the same for all people at all times. My parents have gradually changed their standards over the course of many years. They wore shorter sleves, had wedding rings, and a few other things. However, as they traveled through life, they realized that shorter sleeves showed more than was modest, applied the teachings against the wearing of gold to the wedding ring and other things that might be considered jewelry.

They then passed these on to us. Dad, being Pastor, hold to sleeves below the elbow, no rings, etc. Mom and Dad both wear their sleeves at three quarters. I alternate between wrist and shortly below the elbow (personal preference as three quarters just does not feel 'rolled up' enough for me).

People may view us as being extreme, but we are not that different. One thing that we endevour to teach is the importance of being holy internally as well as externally. That means not mocking people, loving one another (difficult sometimes I will admit), forgiving one another, and of course not neglecting prayer, fasting, and the reading and study of the Word.

I am aware that there are abuses. I could share some stories from my own life, however they are not encouraging to anyone else (a pastor attempted to do harm to us spiritually and to my father's ministry, but I will say no more because he was a man of God even then). I am the son of a pastor and have been my entire life as I was both born and raised in Pentecost.

I sat in the 2007 General Conference and heard what was said. I have heard what others had to say afterward about those of us that left.

God dealt with me on this topic recently, and there is not enough time for me to be concerned with what lies in the past. I have no time to be bitter, angry, or hurt. The only thing that matters is that souls are told this message. I realize that I have gone on at great length and apologize.

In closing, the Bible says that if you have anything against your brother, before you attempt to come before the throne of God, go and make peace with your brother. I would rather it roll off of me like water off a ducks back so that I do not have anything against anyone.

[trialedbyfire]

I'm not UPC, never have been.

I have three TVs in my home.

I play sports.

I go to the movies (not much anymore because of the economy, though).

I still grow weary of the attitude many people have towards the UPC. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm very sure emotional hurt occurs in UPC, it happens in every church, because churches have people in them, and people aren't perfect. That's not an excuse to leave the church, the doctrine, or Christ. It's also not an excuse to bash the organization, especially if you left on your own accord because you had a disagreement. Call it what it is... a disagreement and move on. You don't have to rail against the organization, they are human, just like their defectors, they can be wrong and their defectors can be wrong.