Yes, I see that. That's interesting. So, Abraham is saying that God is just for keeping His (God's) promise and not God calling Abraham "just" because of His (Abraham's) faith.
correct it is Abraham who would be doing the counting. This would be due to errors in the Septuagint which was used at the time. Which the professor makes excellent points on syntax.
I Samuel 21:13..............The evangelist had some understanding of the Greek. The word that is translated mad is halal. It occurs 165 times. This is the only time that I'm aware of that it is not translated as praise or boast. The idea that David was praising is also supported by Ps. 34. The pretext says that it is a psalm of David when he changed his behavior before Abimelech. Ps. 34
I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise [shall] continually [be] in my mouth.
My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear [thereof], and be glad.
O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together
I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.
The word boast here is the same word halal. It is translated differently because of the context.
If you read Samuel 21 as praising or boasting before God and then read Ps 34 it presents a very cohesive account. It seems to fit the circumstances, and it doesn't use a rare variant translation of the word hala.
With that being said, I would be very hesitant preaching it myself. It is plausible that praise was the intent of the author of the original autographs based on context clues. I don't think it is fair to chracterize the evangelist's message as false. However, it is probably wiser to preach messages that don't require speculation. An educated guess is still a guess.
Rom 12:19 Dear friends, never avenge yourselves. Leave that to God. For it is written, "I will take vengeance; I will repay those who deserve it," says the Lord. Rom 12:20 Instead, do what the Scriptures say: "If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink, and they will be ashamed of what they have done to you." Rom 12:21 Don't let evil get the best of you, but conquer evil by doing good.
Are you sure you're looking at the NLT?
Yes, I am looking at the NLT. The portion in verse 20, "and they will be ashamed of what they have done to you.", doesn't sound very forgiving to me.To teach someone to perform an act so that it will bring attention to the person's evil deeds and make them feel ashamed seems to be teaching unforgiveness, IMO. It contradicts verse 21 - "Don't let evil get the best of you, but conquer evil by doing good."
Proverbs 25:21 "If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
And look at these passages which teach us to overcome evil with good.
II Kings 6:22 "He answered, "You shall not kill them. Would you (A)kill those you have taken captive with your sword and with your bow? Set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink and go to their master."
Exodus 23:5 "If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying helpless under its load, you shall refrain from leaving it to him, you shall surely release it with him."
II Chronicles 28:15 "Then the men who were designated by name arose, took the captives, and they clothed all their naked ones from the spoil; and they gave them clothes and sandals, fed them and gave them drink, anointed them with oil, led all their feeble ones on donkeys, and brought them to Jericho, the city of palm trees, to their brothers; then they returned to Samaria."
Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
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That David worshipping story is great! In bible school, we actually had a guy preach the 5 smooth stones that David used stood for J-E-S-U-S, and he was dead-serious. That would make a good book...or thread..."Worst Preaching gaffes ever."
LOL! I was a little surprised and I will respond further in Landon Davis' posts on this.
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Timmy often says, "Just read it for what it says". I don't think he said it in this thread.
That can be true, but sometimes not. LOL! For instance, if you read Matthew 19:24, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God", you would be trying to push a camel through the eye of a sewing needle. But, after further study, you find that it is a smaller gate built into the great city gate. Some passages require further study for understanding.
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But go look at that bible again and make sure what version it is.
Posted above. Again, I can't agree that "they will be ashamed" should be used in that passage, IMHO.
I Samuel 21:13..............The evangelist had some understanding of the Greek. The word that is translated mad is halal. It occurs 165 times. This is the only time that I'm aware of that it is not translated as praise or boast. The idea that David was praising is also supported by Ps. 34. The pretext says that it is a psalm of David when he changed his behavior before Abimelech. Ps. 34
I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise [shall] continually [be] in my mouth.
My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear [thereof], and be glad.
O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together
I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.
The word boast here is the same word halal. It is translated differently because of the context.
If you read Samuel 21 as praising or boasting before God and then read Ps 34 it presents a very cohesive account. It seems to fit the circumstances, and it doesn't use a rare variant translation of the word hala.
I see that, but the operative word, IMO, in I Samuel 21:13 would be "feigned". "Feigned" means "deceiving" or "fraud". So, David was "deceiving" them into thinking he was mad. If he was, in fact, praising or boasting, the Word bears out that he was faking it, IMO.
And, of course, in verse 14, Achish uses the word "mad" as "insanity."
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Originally Posted by LandonDavis
With that being said, I would be very hesitant preaching it myself. It is plausible that praise was the intent of the author of the original autographs based on context clues. I don't think it is fair to chracterize the evangelist's message as false. However, it is probably wiser to preach messages that don't require speculation. An educated guess is still a guess.
Agreed. I wouldn't teach something that would require speculation.
Last edited by Pressing-On; 04-28-2010 at 10:26 PM.
Yes, I am looking at the NLT. The portion in verse 20, "and they will be ashamed of what they have done to you.", doesn't sound very forgiving to me.To teach someone to perform an act so that it will bring attention to the person's evil deeds and make them feel ashamed seems to be teaching unforgiveness, IMO. It contradicts verse 21 - "Don't let evil get the best of you, but conquer evil by doing good."
Proverbs 25:21 "If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
And look at these passages which teach us to overcome evil with good.
II Kings 6:22 "He answered, "You shall not kill them. Would you (A)kill those you have taken captive with your sword and with your bow? Set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink and go to their master."
Exodus 23:5 "If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying helpless under its load, you shall refrain from leaving it to him, you shall surely release it with him."
II Chronicles 28:15 "Then the men who were designated by name arose, took the captives, and they clothed all their naked ones from the spoil; and they gave them clothes and sandals, fed them and gave them drink, anointed them with oil, led all their feeble ones on donkeys, and brought them to Jericho, the city of palm trees, to their brothers; then they returned to Samaria."
Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
LOL! I was a little surprised and I will respond further in Landon Davis' posts on this.
That can be true, but sometimes not. LOL! For instance, if you read Matthew 19:24, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God", you would be trying to push a camel through the eye of a sewing needle. But, after further study, you find that it is a smaller gate built into the great city gate. Some passages require further study for understanding.
Posted above. Again, I can't agree that "they will be ashamed" should be used in that passage, IMHO.
I understand what you're saying about the previous verses that contain the instruction to bless those that hurt you. But I would see Romans 12 as a further explanation of why we do it and the result of doing it.
I would see that bringing "shame" to someone who has hurt you, by blessing them, would be in the same vein as "Godly sorrow that works repentance. What do you think?
Evidently, you have the second edition of the NLT. I strongly prefer the original edition.
I understand what you're saying about the previous verses that contain the instruction to bless those that hurt you. But I would see Romans 12 as a further explanation of why we do it and the result of doing it.
I would see that bringing "shame" to someone who has hurt you, by blessing them, would be in the same vein as "Godly sorrow that works repentance. What do you think?
Evidently, you have the second edition of the NLT. I strongly prefer the original edition.
I might could draw that conclusion if not for Romans 12:21. I didn't see any other translation coming up with what the NLT is showing. If there were more, I might consider it. But I know what is behind the "coals of fire on the head" - it's an act of kindness and generosity to share your coals to keep your house warm and to allow you to cook. And they did carry this in a Brazier on their head. Like I said, it's one of those scriptures that need a background check like the "eye of the needle" in Matt. 19:24. Pretty sure I can't change my thinking on this passage.
In translation, you can't always translate word for word. Sometimes a word can only be translated as an expression. The entire expression, "feigned himself mad" comes from the single Hebrew word "halal." This is the translators attempt to make the story fit together. Usually this word is translated as making a boast, shining forth, or expressing praise.
I would agree that the King thought he was crazy. Many people in the world today think that we are crazy because of our exuberant praise. Imagine the reaction if we shouted before the Lord as we faced certain death.
I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm just saying that it is a possible translation for the text.
In translation, you can't always translate word for word. Sometimes a word can only be translated as an expression. The entire expression, "feigned himself mad" comes from the single Hebrew word "halal." This is the translators attempt to make the story fit together. Usually this word is translated as making a boast, shining forth, or expressing praise.
I would agree that the King thought he was crazy. Many people in the world today think that we are crazy because of our exuberant praise. Imagine the reaction if we shouted before the Lord as we faced certain death.
I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm just saying that it is a possible translation for the text.
Landon,
Thank you for contributing your thoughts on this thread! And welcome to AFF! I have appreciated your input and it is certainly what this thread is about!
I was reading the pretext of Psalm 34 in some other translations. I know that I vaguely remember seeing this, but didn't pay that close of attention to it. Just a few:
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Of David, when he changed his behavior before Abimelech, so that he drove him out, and he went away. (ESV)
Of David. When he pretended to be insane before Abimelech, who drove him away, and he left. (NIV)
[A Psalm] of David; when he pretended to be insane before Abimelech, who drove him out, and he went away. (Amplified)
Many times I'm like the little girl (Cindy-Lou Who) on the Grinch That Stole Christmas. (lol) I approach things like her by looking and simply saying, "Why are you taking our Christmas tree?" In other words, I normally approach things, from the beginning, in a simple way before I dig deeper. lol
Going back to I Samuel 21:13 it says that David "scrabbled on the doors of the gate". "Scrabbled" means - "scratch". So, he's scratching the door and spit is dripping down his beard. That just, somehow, does not equate "praise", IMMHO. LOL!
So, do you think he's pulling an Abraham when he pretended that Sarah was not his wife, but his sister? That type of deal? Just lying to save himself? Looks like it to me.
In bible school, we actually had a guy preach the 5 smooth stones that David used stood for J-E-S-U-S, and he was dead-serious. That would make a good book...or thread..."Worst Preaching gaffes ever."
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