Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dead?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by easter

1 Peter 4:1-6 preaching to the dead

I once heard a preacher give this account on preaching to the dead...
Can you imagine those folks before the coming of Jesus down in the Heart of the earth...I bet when those old testament saints heard from John the Baptist when he got there,he said ;boys get ready,Hey Isaiah,you know the one you told was coming?Well praise God you were right,even in describing him!Can't you hear Simeon and Anna,Oh John is right we saw the messiah as a baby in the temple of God.
Yes I bet there was some preaching going on and when Jesus took the keys of death and went down to the heart of the earth and got all the old testament saints,why even a few was seen walking the streets in Jerusalem.I bet there was a hallelujah going on in Heaven.
I always did like this sermon!

The problem is however it was a dupe. How do we know?

Well this great preaching session that supposedly took place in Hades never happened! If it did we would expect that a great man of Elohim like David would have heard this message and then been resurrected from the dead.

Is that what happened? If so do you think apostle Peter would have known about it? Did he believe David was taken away into Heaven when Yeshua rose from Hades/Sheol?

29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35: Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Acts 2:29-35

Peter is preaching the first sermon of the New Testament Church! He just spent 40 days with Yeshua AFTER HIS RESURRECTION in which he was taught the great truths of the kingdom of Elohim.

In his sermon he expressly taught that at that present time David was both dead and buried. The only one he taught whose soul was not left in Hades/Sheol was Yeshua! He expressly said that it was HE not David who was raised from the dead.

He expressly taught that David DID NOT ascend into Heaven. Verse 34.

If such a sermon was preached in Sheol to the supposed saints who were there why was David not included with them in their trip to Heaven? Did he die lost?

Paul said exactly the same in his own teaching.

34: And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35: Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36: For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37: But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Acts 13:34-37

And finally if indeed Yeshua went to Hades/Sheol (Greek and Hebrew terms for the same place) what did Paul mean by this?

Speaking of the future resurrection at the last trump:

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55

Look at verse 55. The word grave is actually HADES in the Greek!

If Yeshua took the righteous saints OUT OF HADES/SHEOL at his resurrection why does Paul say at the last trump resurrection THEN victory will be won over it?

What is it about Hades/Sheol that at this present time still has victory?

If we were only talking about dead bodies this would have no meaning at all. The doctrine of "instant heaven" does not teach that BODIES of the Christians go there!

In their doctrine it was SOULS that went to Hades. And in the sermon preached by the Preacher you mentioned they should have all of them been taken to Heaven with Christ amen?

Yet why does Paul teach the Church that Hades has the victory over the saints until the last trumpet resurrection of the dead?

Is it not because the saints are still there? Dead in the grave WAITING IN SLEEP TO BE RESURRECTED?

Nothing else makes sense for verse 55.

[easter]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Please dont be impressed with my knowledge of Jewish history. Outside of the events described in the Tanakh it is very limited.

I have read some of Josephus's writings. Do you believe him to be fully accurate?

How about when he says there was hardly a Jew living in his generation that spoke in Greek?

How about when the angels came down and had sex with women?

What Josephus said about Hades does not agree with what the Tanakh says about it so one would certainly be inclined to question it.

I believe he is as accurate as any historian can be with a limited amount of documentation.Would I recommend his works to a baby Christian?No!
I didn't say his works should be taken as the word of God,only suggested reading Josephus's works to get a better understanding of the Jewish history and culture.
You see in Jewish culture a wedding is very different then say weddings that we are use to.If a mature Christian wanted a better understanding of Jewish customs and have a more clear understanding of some of Jesus's teachings, knowing Jewish history and culture then I recommend Josephus.Jesus taught Jewish people that had Jewish customs.In other words he taught them in a way he knew they would understand him.
I take it you are not fond of the book of Enoch?

[easter]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The problem is however it was a dupe. How do we know?

Well this great preaching session that supposedly took place in Hades never happened! If it did we would expect that a great man of Elohim like David would have heard this message and then been resurrected from the dead.

Is that what happened? If so do you think apostle Peter would have known about it? Did he believe David was taken away into Heaven when Yeshua rose from Hades/Sheol?

29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35: Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Acts 2:29-35

Peter is preaching the first sermon of the New Testament Church! He just spent 40 days with Yeshua AFTER HIS RESURRECTION in which he was taught the great truths of the kingdom of Elohim.

In his sermon he expressly taught that at that present time David was both dead and buried. The only one he taught whose soul was not left in Hades/Sheol was Yeshua! He expressly said that it was HE not David who was raised from the dead.

He expressly taught that David DID NOT ascend into Heaven. Verse 34.

If such a sermon was preached in Sheol to the supposed saints who were there why was David not included with them in their trip to Heaven? Did he die lost?

Paul said exactly the same in his own teaching.

34: And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35: Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36: For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37: But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Acts 13:34-37

And finally if indeed Yeshua went to Hades/Sheol (Greek and Hebrew terms for the same place) what did Paul mean by this?

Speaking of the future resurrection at the last trump:

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55

Look at verse 55. The word grave is actually HADES in the Greek!

If Yeshua took the righteous saints OUT OF HADES/SHEOL at his resurrection why does Paul say at the last trump resurrection THEN victory will be won over it?

What is it about Hades/Sheol that at this present time still has victory?

If we were only talking about dead bodies this would have no meaning at all. The doctrine of "instant heaven" does not teach that BODIES of the Christians go there!

In their doctrine it was SOULS that went to Hades. And in the sermon preached by the Preacher you mentioned they should have all of them been taken to Heaven with Christ amen?

Yet why does Paul teach the Church that Hades has the victory over the saints until the last trumpet resurrection of the dead?

Is it not because the saints are still there? Dead in the grave WAITING IN SLEEP TO BE RESURRECTED?

Nothing else makes sense for verse 55.

Well this does make a great sermon.How do you know this didn't happen?Didn't Jesus go into the heart of the earth for three days?I'm sure they didn't just stare at one another while Jesus was getting the keys.Hey maybe this is where the thief came in handy oh I couldn't resist that one.
As far as Peter talking about King David this was referring to David's earthly body and not his spirit.
I'm not saying this happen as a fact but it could have.Something was going on in that 3 day period.
I'm sure that an unsaved soul would fit verse 55.You gotta remember before Jesus the saved and unsaved went into the heart of the earth separated only by a great chasm(Gulf)
Oh I didn't say this took place in Hades.What would John the Baptist be doing in hell?

[easter]

Michael I believe you forgot to answer the question...
1 Thessalonians 4:14

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by easter

I believe he is as accurate as any historian can be with a limited amount of documentation.Would I recommend his works to a baby Christian?No!
I didn't say his works should be taken as the word of God,only suggested reading Josephus's works to get a better understanding of the Jewish history and culture.
You see in Jewish culture a wedding is very different then say weddings that we are use to.If a mature Christian wanted a better understanding of Jewish customs and have a more clear understanding of some of Jesus's teachings, knowing Jewish history and culture then I recommend Josephus.Jesus taught Jewish people that had Jewish customs.In other words he taught them in a way he knew they would understand him.
I take it you are not fond of the book of Enoch?

Enoch is very interesting reading. Yet if its inspired Oneness doctrine is out the window!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mike,

The word eternal has various shades of meaning depending on context. For instance another foundation doctrine is "eternal judgment". This does not mean the wicked began to be punished before time began!

Rather their eternal judgment begins when they are cast into the lake of fire.

Of course Jesus is the source of eternal life, the giver of it. Thats what he does for us by giving us a resurrection. When we receive our spiritual body we will have "obtained" eternal life.

Until then we have it in "earnest". He pledges it through giving us his Spirit.

So its accurate to say we have eternal life. Its also accurate to say we are still waiting for it.

I will check the issue of the meanings of eternal in scripture. Thanks for your point.

[easter]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Enoch is very interesting reading. Yet if its inspired Oneness doctrine is out the window!

Come again?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by easter

Come again?

Remember "The Concealed One"?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by easter

Well this does make a great sermon.How do you know this didn't happen?Didn't Jesus go into the heart of the earth for three days?I'm sure they didn't just stare at one another while Jesus was getting the keys.Hey maybe this is where the thief came in handy oh I couldn't resist that one.
As far as Peter talking about King David this was referring to David's earthly body and not his spirit.
I'm not saying this happen as a fact but it could have.Something was going on in that 3 day period.
I'm sure that an unsaved soul would fit verse 55.You gotta remember before Jesus the saved and unsaved went into the heart of the earth separated only by a great chasm(Gulf)
Oh I didn't say this took place in Hades.What would John the Baptist be doing in hell?

Yes Yeshua went into the heart of the Earth for 3 days. That is the grave. Sheol was the same thing as Hades. Either one speaks of the grave. Thats where David was and all men.

The righteous and unrighteous all alike go to Sheol. Even the animals go there!

12: Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
13: This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
14: Like sheep they are laid in the grave {sheol}; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave {sheol} from their dwelling.
15: But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave{sheol} : for he shall receive me. Selah.

Yes Davids earthly body was in Sheol. But David also said Thou will not leave my SOUL in Sheol! See? His body and his soul were both in the same place.

Now to this.

55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55 1 Cor. 15:55

In what way would verse 55 be speaking of the unsaved?

Paul just wrote about the saved getting immortality. Then he says Sheol no longer has the victory? Are you saying it is the unsaved who are gaining immortality?

Obviously for Paul to equate the resurrection of the dead and translation of saints from mortal to immortal has connection with Sheol having no more victory OVER THEM!

[easter]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes Yeshua went into the heart of the Earth for 3 days. That is the grave. Sheol was the same thing as Hades. Either one speaks of the grave. Thats where David was and all men.

The righteous and unrighteous all alike go to Sheol. Even the animals go there!

12: Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
13: This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
14: Like sheep they are laid in the grave {sheol}; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave {sheol} from their dwelling.
15: But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave{sheol} : for he shall receive me. Selah.

Yes Davids earthly body was in Sheol. But David also said Thou will not leave my SOUL in Sheol! See? His body and his soul were both in the same place.

Now to this.

55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55 1 Cor. 15:55

In what way would verse 55 be speaking of the unsaved?

Paul just wrote about the saved getting immortality. Then he says Sheol no longer has the victory? Are you saying it is the unsaved who are gaining immortality?

Obviously for Paul to equate the resurrection of the dead and translation of saints from mortal to immortal has connection with Sheol having no more victory OVER THEM!

Beg your pardon,you need to understand the saved and unsaved were separated by a great gulf.Of course the story(sermon)was not Bible and I will once again remind you of that fact.The book of Enoch was in the Bible for hundreds of years before the Laodicean Church had it taken out.Odd don't you think? This is the same church in Revelations that no one wants to be in.As far as the complete works of Josephus you really probably shouldn't read his works yet.
You really don't want to answer the Question on who it is that God brings with him at the Rapture so let me help you out with the answer.
1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
There's your answer on soul sleep.
Some people strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.Do you believe Elijah went to Heaven in a flaming chariot?Yet you can't see the dead in Christ in Heaven.