Dissatisfied Member of a future WWPF Church

[Praxeas]

just remember this entitles you to only ONE get out of ban free card....use it wisely

[Joseph Miller]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

just remember this entitles you to only ONE get out of ban free card....use it wisely

Ok, I don't intend to do anything to get banned but I will remember the card.

[Sister Alvear]

really my opinion would be for the pastor to explain how he feels to his church family and talk things over. I personally would not do anything in haste but in much prayer.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

really my opinion would be for the pastor to explain how he feels to his church family and talk things over. I personally would not do anything in haste but in much prayer.

Exactly....see we already have a stigma of being a cult hanging over us plus the charge of having abusive pastors by some....being manipulative and controlling often goes hand in hand with an abusive relationship

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Jekyll

I don't know if I would believe everything I read here.

If you don't trust your pastor to lead your local assembly, what do you trust him to do?

Originally Posted by Jekyll

I'm afraid that this is all some saints would have a pastor do.

Originally Posted by Jekyll

Reviling a pastor who changes organizations is a sappy point at best. Kinda like saying that those who waste time on internet forums should use their time to witness or pray or whatever.

Good points! All three of them!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

Was the pastor their spiritual father last year in the UPCI? Then why can't he be their spiritual father in the WPF.

This makes a lot of sense. It seems many people are more loyal to an organization that they do not even belong to than the Pastor God has put over them to watch for their souls.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Joseph Miller

I disagree that this is a "new" teaching. I think that this is something always taught and believed in the UPCI. It is also a Biblical principle so there is not argument against it.

It is a "new" teaching in some areas. Uncut hair and no pants on women was a regional belief in the early years of the UPC. My mother grew up UPC in the 1950s and the women cut their hair and wore pants for play and cold weather activities. It was not until a different pastor came in the early 1970s that no pants and uncut hair was taught at the church she grew up in.

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

really my opinion would be for the pastor to explain how he feels to his church family and talk things over. I personally would not do anything in haste but in much prayer.

I don’t think that there is necessarily an easy answer to the question of rebellion against pastoral authority, but anything we do must be done with prayer. We have to make sure that our motivations are right and that we are behaving in a righteous manner. Too often, people become critical and whenever the pastor makes a mistake or says something wrong they are offended. Then over time they start looking for a reason to leave or to rebel in some way. When they get to the next church and find that it is less than perfect then they are unhappy there and a cycle of unhappiness is the result. Whatever a person’s choice in this particular situation is to be, he or she must be certain that there are no false motives. There can’t be a desire for revenge or even justice in their actions. They have to do what is right because it is right for themselves and their families. In my opinion, this is the only way a person can rebel right. If I were to take a position against my pastor publicly (or even privately), I would want to saturate the problem in prayer and have no doubts about my intentions. Otherwise, I think it best to leave the matter alone and continue in prayer, because the real problem may be in my own heart and outlook.

There is wisdom in Sister Alvear’s words.

In the current situation, some pastors are moving from one organization to another and others are staying and this may bring dissatisfaction in individual members. I think it is important to remember that even though some aspects of our fellowship have changed (not a new thing for many conservatives whose pastors have already withdrawn their fellowship), our pastors (in most cases) have not changed what they believe and teach and I do not think that (in most cases) fellowship with those on the other side will be limited to the individual member. This is a restructuring of churches, but not necessarily of friendships and families. We are not truly identified by a label (WWPF or UPC), but by our relationships with God and with each other.

This is a bit more complicated for me personally, having been really disillusioned with the conservative message as a result of the methods of my original pastor. He was the type to say “I’m right and if you don’t like it, get out.” He was never afraid to call people down from the pulpit and challenge them. Almost no one could leave the church without it being clearly understood that they were not right and that they would be lost. After years of this, and after a complete spiritual breakdown, I realized that this could not be right and looked for a way out. God blessed me and I was able to escape this man’s ministry without feeling that I would be lost, and the person I accepted as my new pastor appeared to be more moderate in belief and very kind and gentle. After a few years, he started becoming more conservative and started to associate with men that were even more conservative than what I was used to before. He ended our fellowship with the UPC and we started fellowshipping with other extreme conservatives (They all wear dark suits, white shirts, dark ties and he started dressing the same way).

All of this I can handle as I have no love for television, flashy dress, sports, etc., but I cannot handle the nasty and harsh attitudes of some of these men. If my pastor is not careful in his selection of evangelists, etc., and does not protect the church from this harsh conservative attitude, then I will have to seek another church. The harsh attitudes are something that almost caused me to make some very bad choices years ago and I know that I have to protect myself regardless of what anyone thinks.

Still, after having said all of that, I genuinely love my pastor and my church and the thought of leaving is not something that is appealing to me. My pastor has given me his word that he will protect the church from this level of harshness ( I have expressed my concerns to him)).

I would say to anyone in a similar position to give it some time. I am somewhat surprised to hear of members instantaneously leaving churches to go across town to the WWPF church or to the UPC church. This should be a matter of thought and prayer and time. Just because the church as changed affiliation does not mean the church itself will be any different. My case is an exception and the reason that I share it is that anyone in a similar situation may benefit from my thoughts even if some of them may be flawed.

Originally Posted by TrmptPraise

I am by no means going to suggest or even advise you in an action one way or the other. However, perhaps my experience will help in your journey.

In choosing a church that we attend (whether it may be moving into the area or the church we were “born” into) we are bound, I believe biblically, to place ourselves under submission of the pastor. Now there were many times, because of the nature of my father’s vocation, that we had to move and choose a church to attend. On occasion we were “stuck,” for lack of a better word, in attending a certain church. It may be the only church in the area or it may have not been feasible to travel to another. We may not have agreed eye-to-eye with everything our pastor held in regards to standards, but because of God’s view of subjection, we did not make a fuss or create discord. We simply abode by the pastor’s guidelines.

Your case seems to be much similar now. You have a decision to make whether you feel that your current church (in its atmosphere, its worship, its outreach, etc…) is of greater value to you than what may be your “beefs” with it. You bring up rebellion. I think rebellion in this case would be you staying and creating something that would not be to the benefit of yourself or the body of that church. You may have to ask yourself can I hang here with out this troubling my mind and without it hindering my walk. However, if you believe that you cannot in good faith remain under the subjection of the pastor, perhaps finding another congregation would be better for you. It may be that finding a pastor that you can place all your confidence in and saying your heart “I can subject myself to this pastor” would not only benefit you, but also decrease the chance of creating disunity within your current assembly.

Before anyone blasts me, I would say this about anyone and any church no matter its affiliation.

As Pelathais states, there are other resources dependent on your role and investment in the church. I wish you all the best and pray that God wisdom and direction will be with you during this difficult time.

This statement I highlighted is an interesting view that I had not considered before.

Originally Posted by pelathais

I think the answer concerning their justification lies in the history of the UPC. In some people's eyes we were a fellowship that was supposed to be making "progress" in coming into the "unity" of the Apostolic faith. Whenever this "progress" seemed to slow or to diminish in importance, they became frustrated and agitated for more radical measure to keep the "progress" going.

Because they had no real Biblical arguments to support some of the changes in standards, like the introduction of the doctrine of uncut hair on women and no slacks on women- they often would exaggerate about a perceived decline in morals around them. Suddenly, everyone had "gone Charismatic" or "backslid" into some error.

The current divisions within the UPC exist in this milieu. Therefore, I think it is always necessary to stand up for truth. Challenge the false allegations of "corruption" and "sin" in the "compromising churches." Of course when sin does come up, we must speak out against it while also offering a hope of forgiveness and restoration to the fallen.

For myself, I walked out of the UPC because of "tough guy" preachers demanding the very worst sort of accommodations. I was angry at the UPC as a whole for several years and felt like I had been betrayed. In time I began to see that the UPC had also been betrayed by those who let me down. And further, because of my silence I hurt good men in the UPC myself.

When does taking a stand become justified? It is always justified. Just keep the right spirit, remember that Jesus is the Judge and that He has committed to us a ministry of reconciliation. And then plant your feet, square your shoulders and stand.

I am curious about what you have said about standards and the UPC. Do you have any references you could share so that I can look at this? I know that the Pentecostal movement did not start as a holiness movement, but I understand that holiness was generally accepted well before the merger. At this point I must admit that I find what you have said to be doubtful and it is much disputed here.