John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'm not sure you are actually reading what I posted. I am definitely sure you aren't addressing the points I raised. Meanwhile, you are definitely adding things to the text (like "Paul says the righteous gentile has no Word/Gospel" etc. when that is not at all what he said.

So, I guess we'll just have to leave it at that - you believe that people can be saved by works apart from faith in Christ (you have so much as said so repeatedly), and I say that without faith one cannot please God, that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, that ALL both Jew and Gentile are convicted by God as being under sin ("there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE") and therefore ALL need Christ, that whoever believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life and whoever does NOT believe in Christ will not see life, etc. "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God", yet you have people entering heaven and living forever... but not born again? Can you have eternal life and not be in the kingdom of God?

I honestly don't think you will get much traction with this idea.

Well, he did have some good points on construction.

Anyway, what about my thought on just taking the bags down after training?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Well, he did have some good points on construction.

Anyway, what about my thought on just taking the bags down after training?

Yeah, you sound like my boxing coach - "Obviously you aren't working out hard enough, here, do more!" lol

[Amanah]

So, about Psalm 19

Meta AI says:

Yes, there is a correlation between Psalm 19 and Romans 2 regarding the conversion of Gentile believers. Here are some connections:

- *Gentiles as true Jews*: In Romans 2:25-29, Paul argues that uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law are considered true Jews, while some circumcised Jews may not be. Similarly, Psalm 19 highlights God's revelation through creation and His word, which is accessible to all, including Gentiles.

- *Internal circumcision*: In Romans 2:28-29, Paul explains that true circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit. Psalm 19:14 echoes this idea, asking God to "let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight."

- *God's judgment*: Romans 2:12-16 warns that Gentiles who sin without the law will perish without the law, while those under the law will be judged by it. Psalm 19:9-11 describes God's judgments as "true and righteous altogether," implying a universal standard for all people.

- *Faith and obedience*: Both Psalm 19 and Romans 2 emphasize the importance of faith and obedience in response to God's revelation. Psalm 19:7-10 extols the perfection of God's law, while Romans 2:25-27 highlights the need for Gentiles to "fulfill the law" through faith.

While the direct connection between Psalm 19 and Romans 2 is not explicit, both passages share common themes related to Gentile conversion, such as internal circumcision, faith, obedience, and God's universal judgment. ¹

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Yeah, you sound like my boxing coach - "Obviously you aren't working out hard enough, here, do more!" lol

I understand.

But especially in grappling, lifting and throwing the heavy bag is good part of training. Therefore taking the bag down after the work out is a nice finish to your training. Taking down the 150lbs Thai bag, and 120lbs uppercut bag on a hot Texas day isn’t as bad as taking them down on a hot South Florida day.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Would you agree that Psalm 19 is directed to Israel?

Yes, but the effects of creation are upon all, Jew and Gentile. And the law is for all the lawless, Ro3.19.

There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world....
6 Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

The heathen who ignores what creation speaks of will be without excuse, because they traded the truth that creation speaks of for the lie of idolatry Ro1.20, 25. But these Gentiles of Ro2.12-16 will give an excuse, that they have listened to creation and also their conscience; and live right even without hearing your Word. They will say I show the law in my heart but don't have the law. The Lord will say, I accept your excuse.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Yes, but the effects of creation are upon all, Jew and Gentile. And the law is for all the lawless, Ro3.19.

There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world....
6 Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

The heathen who ignores what creation speaks of will be without excuse, because they traded the truth that creation speaks of for the lie of idolatry Ro1.20, 25. But these Gentiles of Ro2.12-16 will give an excuse, that they have listened to creation and also their conscience; and live right even without hearing your Word. They will say I show the law in my heart but don't have the law. The Lord will say, I accept your excuse.

There is no “but.”

If you agree then Psalm 19 is directly speaking to Israel. The Law was the only thing that would lead to Christ. Not birds, the bees, the flowers, or the trees. The apostles didn’t write about heathens ignoring the creation would be without excuse. Romans 1:20 is speaking to those who already understood Genesis. Therefore they were without excuse when they rejected the Law, or added to the Law. You need to keep in mind that the Law was the schoolmaster to bring anyone to Christ. Some Druid isn’t going to get an Epiphany if he understands that a spiritual deity made the tree he is hugging.

[Amanah]

Humility is the beginning of wisdom,
Pride it's downfall.

A reminder to remain teachable.
The longer we live for God the more difficult it is to remain teachable.

I quote this to myself everyday.

[donfriesen1]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1615311] I'm not sure you are actually reading what I posted. I do, more than once. I am definitely sure you aren't addressing the points I raised. True, some I ignore for brevity sake. Meanwhile, you are definitely adding things to the text (like "Paul says the righteous gentile has no Word/Gospel" etc. when that is not at all what he said. But the conclusion of what you say leads anyone to believe that these Gentiles have the Gospel. You say they show the work of the law in their hearts by the presence of the Spirit. If they have the Spirit then they must have heard the Gospel. Any spreading the Gospel also has the OT law. Therefore these you say who have the Spirit must also have the law. Paul twice says they don't have the law. Therefore it makes more sense to see what they show...in their heart as coming about from responding to their conscience because it is more in agreement with Paul's statement that these Gentiles don't have the law.

So, I guess we'll just have to leave it at that - you believe that people can be saved by works apart from faith in Christ (you have so much as said so repeatedly), and I say that without faith one cannot please God, that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, that ALL both Jew and Gentile are convicted by God as being under sin ("there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE") and therefore ALL need Christ, that whoever believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life and whoever does NOT believe in Christ will not see life, etc. "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God", yet you have people entering heaven and living forever... but not born again? Can you have eternal life and not be in the kingdom of God?

You keep going back to something which I have stated I agree with, the preaching of Ac2.38, but which are two separate topics: those that hear the Gospel and those who never hear the Gospel. What I speak to in this thread, the main point, is that some don't ever get to hear the full gospel. God will judge them by what they know, not by what they should or could have have known. Do you do this purposely to obfuscate? I'm thinking you do. Play fair or not at all. Plz stay on the topic and address the points without distortion of another's points.

When making a doctrine it a good idea to read the whole Book. When verses are cherry-picked and others are left out a distorted view is presented. Ro2.12-16 should be in the discussion when John3/Acts2 are discussed. God has placed it in the Word for consideration, not ignoring.
Faith is active to direct these Wordless Gentiles who had listened to their God-given conscience, just like it was in Enoch. They have faith to change their ways to plz God. Just don't call them late for supper. You can call this response to their faith "salvation by good works" or whatever description you want to think up, just don't link me with it to throw mud on me when I haven't indicated so.

Can you have eternal life and not be in the kingdom of God? Are the righteous of Ages past (all those before Acts2) in the Kingdom of God? No. Do they have eternal life or eternal death? I hope to see them forever in Heaven, don't you? Therefore, there are many, many in Heaven from other Ages who are not born again, and also some from the NT Age as testified to by Paul in Ro2.12-16.

Good, better, best. BEST: God's desire is that all, the whole world, would be born again. God does not say 'because all aren't born again, because I didn't get my wish for best, then no one will go to heaven'. No he settles for less than the best. BETTER: some are born again and some not. GOOD: a few change their ways when they listen to their conscience though not having the Word. In a perfect world all would be born again and go to heaven. And we know where we live - its not the best.

I honestly don't think you will get much traction with this idea.

It is my hope that some will believe that Ro2 does not contradict Jn3/Ac2. Not all men want to receive the truth but some will.

[donfriesen1]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;1615320]

If you agree then Psalm 19 is directly speaking to Israel. Yes and no, to agreeing it is only to Israel. The law is meant for all humans and I would not limit Ps19 to Israel alone. The Law was the only thing that would lead to Christ. Not birds, the bees, the flowers, or the trees. The apostles didn’t write about heathens ignoring the creation would be without excuse. Romans 1:20 is speaking to those who already understood Genesis Plz clairify if you mean the scriptures of Genesis or what had happened in Genesis. I think you may mean creation but the word Genesis makes me think you may mean something else.. Therefore they were without excuse when they rejected the Law, or added to the Law. But the meaning of Ro1.18-32 is they should have learned something from creation. He does not speak there about the Word, but perhaps you could quote to direct me to that which I might have missed. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: The underlined portion leads me to believe that Paul refers to creation teaching something in those who are open to hear. Most Gentiles closed their mind and accepted idols vs recognition of God.

You need to keep in mind that the Law was the schoolmaster to bring anyone to Christ. Galatians, which has that which you refer to here, is about foolish people who have the Spirit but have been persuaded to return to living by the law. Paul writes to them hoping to correct this error. In his teaching he refers to the schoolmaster, which my Nelson NKJV translates as 'tudor'. It has this footnote from 'tudor': "in a household, the guardian responsible for the care and discipline of the children." The purpose of the law was to make sin exceedingly sinful. Ro7.13 Reading the law does not lead to faith in Christ but conviction of sin. The Gospel produces faith to believe for the salvation from the sin the law condemns. Some Druid isn’t going to get an Epiphany if he understands that a spiritual deity made the tree he is hugging.

What say you? What does Paul mean when he refers to nature, Ro2.14 ? It is not the natural world he refers to, and if not this then what is it he means? What say you? Esaias didn't respond to this question. Will you?

[Amanah]

Posted by donfriesen1:
"What say you? What does Paul mean when he refers to nature, Ro2.14 ? It is not the natural world he refers to, and if not this then what is it he means? What say you? Esaias didn't respond to this question. Will you?"


Okay, even if you interpret your way, the conclusion still is that all have sinned and can only be justified by grace through the blood.

You can't be justified by the law or by your conscious. Only by grace and through faith in His blood.

Romans 3:23-25 KJV
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 2:12-16 warns that Gentiles who sin without the law will perish without the law, while those under the law will be judged by it.
Verdict is still "guilty" all have sinned.