You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

[mfblume]

Where is all the biblical discussion? It's all personal attacks now. What is this? Nothing left here but anything except the bible and what it teaches.

[TK Burk]

Okay, Jason, let me get this straight. You said...

Originally Posted by Jason

Well that, and completly side stepping the questions.
What's new?

And you've never answered this question from Bro. Benincasa...

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Jason, here we go again.

You see Brother, you can't explain what you believe. Remember, I'm wrong, you're right. I'm the one who you say is in false doctrine, remember?

So, stop with the games, get to explaining, Mr Correct Eschatology.

Why will the future rebuilt temple be THE HOLY PLACE?

How does Matthew 24:15 correlate with YOUR gaps in Mark 13, Luke 21?

You're the one who is in the TRUTH.

Explain or apologize.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

And when asked—again—to respond to that question all you can say is this??

Originally Posted by Jason

And you say we sidestep questions?

Jason, as I’ve said to you before, please stop posting about things that you are obviously unprepared to support. Get in your Bible and dig out what it says. After, come back and present your findings with book, chapter, and verse.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Where is all the biblical discussion? It's all personal attacks now. What is this? Nothing left here but anything except the bible and what it teaches.

Still sidestepping the fact that what you had said earlier is now obviously not the truth?

This is not a personal attack. It is a fact about what you did. Much of your arguments during that time used your claim that you were not reading me and Bro. Benincasa's posts. We knew then that this was not true, as did anyone else reading your responses. Bro. Blume, common admit what is now plainly evident to all.... Even though you said you were not reading our posts, you really were. I am not sure what you thought you'd gain with that deception, but it certainly did not do anything in the long run but shine light on your methods and on the weakness of your position.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Where is all the biblical discussion? It's all personal attacks now. What is this? Nothing left here but anything except the bible and what it teaches.

Ain't gonna happen not now not ever.


What does the Bible have to do with this discussion?

[mfblume]

I will try and help get this crazy thread back to this issue at hand.

Futurism and Full Preterism are both two erring extremes, I believe. Though I do not think we should disfellowship anyone over these differences, nor commit character assassination over it as some have been doing.


The Lord did come in JUDGMENT in AD70. and Jesus used the term COMETH in Matt 21:40 when he referred to the judgment to hit the Jews, and the pharisees were wise enough to recognize Jesus did not refer to a coming long after their death in this particular instance.

Matthew 21:40 KJV When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

Matthew 21:45 KJV And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The Lord said He would COME IN JUDGMENT AGAINST THEM OF THAT DAY. Full Futurists you cannot ignore this forever.

But Full Preterism goes too far in thinking EVERY reference to His coming was that localized one in AD70. And full futurists err in thinking the future second coming, which is coming, is the ONLY coming Jesus ever referred to.

Full preterists cannot answer these points. I will show what the bible actually says about them, while FP's never provide us an alternative answer since there can be none. Save this in a file to keep the points that this forum has proved that full preterism cannot answer.

The bible does teach a physical resurrection by saying our physical flesh cannot inherit the kingdom, so the physical will be changed to remedy that. Jesus Christ presently has the SAME BODY with which He resurrected, since Romans 6 says that CHRIST DIETH NO MORE, and fp's will admit the only death they claim He experienced was physical death, necessitating this one in Romans 6 to state HE STILL HAS THAT BODY.

Romans 6:9 KJV Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Jesus was stated to have been changed physically in the same manner which we will be changed. The plural personal pronouns in Phil 3:20 show that those used in 3:231 refer ONLY to the church, showing us the only VILE BODY we could have is our mortal flesh in which we presently groan.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV (20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: (21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJV (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Romans 8 mentions the redemption of the body which FP's refuse to comment upon lest we flip out.

Romans 8:19-23 KJV For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Creation is not the GENTILES as opposed to Jews who were saved, but the earth that was thrown into the degradation it now knows due to Adam's dominion over it being forfeited by himself due to sin. And although we have redemption in soul and spirit, we will experience it in body with no more effort of God other than the cross that already occurred. It's just a TIME element to deal with.

THE BODY is a container in the context 2 Cor 5 provides.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. (6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To say the SPIRITUAL BODY of 1 Cor 15 is NOT PHYSICAL is to detract from the CONTAINING function the body performs. To say it is not physical is to make the CONTAINER into CONTENTS instead. It is to LOSE the containing purpose.

And the above verses also show that we will be ABSENT from the body when we die, whereas full preterists claim A SPIRITUAL BODY COMES OUT OF THE PHYSICAL ONE when we die, and that is the only resurrection anyone will ever know. Paul simply said we are absent from the BODY, and said nothing about being in another body of non-physical form when we die. This means we are NAKED when we die and await the resurrection when we shall THEN get our BODY from heaven, which is the physical one in the grave that is CHANGED. I do not think God requires the dust of the old one if it rots to nothing, but nevertheless will provide us once again with a PHYSICAL BODY.

What Jesus experienced in the resurrection by seeing His body CHANGE from mortal to immortal is what we shall experience. That is why Jesus is called the firstfruits of resurrection, since FIRST is the key root word. It is ONLY TIME that differentiates between our resurrections and His own.

Mortality is not swallowed up of life when something immortal LEAVES that which is mortal. Paul said the MORTAL CHANGES TO BECOME SOMETHING IMMORTAL. The mortality OF THE PHYSICAL BODY is swallowed up WHEN THAT SAME BODY becomes immortal. The very phrase SWALLOWED UP demands CHANGE of the PHYSICAL BODY, not abandonment of it in EXCHANGE. Full preterism replaces the word CHANGE in 1 Cor for EXCHANGE as though the SAME BODY that is mortal is not changed into an immortal one, BUT EXCHANGED for an immortal nonphysical one. The terms CHANGE and SWALLOWED UP disallow for full preterism.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This corruptible WHAT?

"THIS" in verse 54 refers to something. And this something is "corruptible". And that SAME THING which is CORRUPTIBLE PUTS ON INCORRUPTION instead. That is why Paul used the word "CHANGED" to note that something alters so that it is no longer CORRUPTIBLE but INCORRUPTIBLE. Full preterism violates the very reasoning of common reading causing words to lose all meaning so say "this" is not referring to the same physical body that is mortal being CHANGED to become instead immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 KJV (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Firstfruits is not a mystical issue of showcasing one VISIBLY to imply pours will be INVISIBLE and therefore non physical. It's just indication THE SAME THING occurs in both cases, except ONE IS BEFORE THE OTHER in time. By sheer virtue of the first being first it is SPECIAL. The verses USE TIME differences, not PHYSICAL or NON PHYSICAL as full preterists say.

Full preterism claims the DEATH mankind experienced with ADAM was ONLY SPIRITUAL.

Romans 5:12 KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

They have to say this because otherwise if Adam was NOT MEANT to die physically, we can argue the Lord had to undo what Adam did by returning us to PHYSICAL immortality.

However, and they cannot answer this, why does Romans 6, the very next chapter, explain the REMEDY for this DEATH due to Adam by showing JESUS DYING PHYSICALLY? PHYSICAL Death had to occur with Jesus due to OUR sin. He took OUR PUNISHMENT for sin. The same punishment Adam experienced. Why? To pay it for us. So HE PHYSICALLY DIED due to the sin that Romans 5:12 mentions that ALSO caused physical death. This means PHYSICAL DEATH was a PENALTY FOR SIN, not just spiritual death, when I agree spiritual death WAS INVOLVED, TOO.

[Steve Epley]

Elder Blume the exception of the first part I heartily AMEN the second part.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Elder Blume the exception of the first part I heartily AMEN the second part.

You mean to say you did not demean me because of the first part? You never called me a liar? Where are all the posts and paragraphs from you that depart from the scriptural point and assassinate my person? (By the way, I maintain I never lied on this forum.)

Haha.

Anyway, thanks, bro.

But Jesus did say he would "COME" to smash the pharisees.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You mean to say you did not demean me because of the first part? You never called me a liar? Where are all the posts and paragraphs from you that depart from the scriptural point and assassinate my person?

Haha.

Anyway, thanks, bro.

I do believe the judgment sent upon Jerusalem was sent by God to punish them so on that we agree but maybe not with the passages you use.

When a person cannot answer the argument they generally attack the arguer.

[mfblume]

1 Cor 15 teaches that DEATH , which is mortality and corruption, is SWALLOWED up in victory. That can only occur if something is MORTAL and CHANGED TO lose its mortality and be rendered immortal instead. And since the whole chapter pivots on the question "WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY COME?", it is in reference ONLY to the one and the same body we now possess in mortality.

When immortality swallows death, death has to be inside something and affecting that something in order for it to be mortal. Otherwise, it should read that death, and what it caused to die, is left behind to remain dead, while immortality carries on in another entity altogether. But when it says "death is swallowed up," it means that death is removed from something, and immortality renders that SAME something to be immortal instead.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I do believe the judgment sent upon Jerusalem was sent by God to punish them so on that we agree but maybe not with the passages you use.

When a person cannot answer the argument they generally attack the arguer.

As we continue without character assassination, lol, do you believe COMETH in Matt 21:40 refers to that judgment you agree was sent to Jerusalem?

Matthew 21:40 KJV When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

...Even if you do not believe Matt 24:3 is that coming?