Angels reproducing with humans possible?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

They weren't angels. They were Seth's line. Godly people who drifted from God. That's why we read "when men multiplied across the earth." Cain's line and Seth's were divided for a long time. They converged. Backsliders married sinners.

I'd belIeve the grape juice thing before if believe angels p rocreated. lol

bump

(Making me do all the work, Shazeep! lol)

[mfblume]

bump

Originally Posted by mfblume

That's the point. Fallen ones. Nephillim.


I think they were. Like I said, one rendering of "men began to call on the name of the Lord" is actually calling themselves by the name of the Lord. Hence, sons of God.



How? I cannot follow your reasoning.


Right, but they called THEMSELVES by the name of the Lord.

Gill wrote:

for so the words may be rendered: "then began men to call themselves", or "to be called by the name of the Lord" (p); the sons of God, as distinct from the sons of men; which distinction may be observed in Gen_6:2 and has been retained more or less ever since: some choose to translate the words, "then began men to call in the name of the Lord" (q); that is, to call upon God in the name of the Messiah, the Mediator between God and man; having now, since the birth of Seth, and especially of Enos, clearer notions of the promised seed, and of the use of him, and his name, in their addresses to God; see Joh_14:13.

Read above.



It's too wild and fantastic, seriously. Again, look at the thoughts of 4:6 and reconsider Christ's words that we shall be like angels in specific reference to no marriage.

[mfblume]

bump

Originally Posted by mfblume

GIANTS: Hebrew:

H5303
נפל נפיל
nephı̂yl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant.

[shazeep]

well, quite interesting! i wasn't aware that there was even an alt theology for the passage. Can't say i really get the point of it? And what are Nephilim, then, since it appears we're gonna rehash it anyway...ty

[shazeep]

oh, got it, ty

[shazeep]

so Nephilim are just 12 foot tall people, bullies, who spontaneously emerged from the union of Seth's descendants with Cain's?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, quite interesting! i wasn't aware that there was even an alt theology for the passage. Can't say i really get the point of it? And what are Nephilim, then, since it appears we're gonna rehash it anyway...ty

Just a sec. Think about it. Giants are mentioned. They were simply said to be in the land in those days. AFTER they were mentioned in that manner, we read the sons of God took the daughters of men and mighty men were born of them. No connection between the mighty men and the giants.. But it puzzles me why some think an explanation is that sons of God were angels who procreated with human women, just because no explanation is given for the existence of the giants, despite the fact Jesus said it doesn't occur between angels to begin with. And as you saw, giants simply can mean tyrannical people.

lol

That always rolls my eyes, but not against anyone personally.

Should quote one more old post since it was a really good point. lol

[mfblume]

bump

Originally Posted by mfblume

before I even heard of such an issue, I never saw the reading saying the children were nephilim.

Read it again:

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

It says there were giants before we read anything about sons of God and daughters of men. It distinguishes the giants as though they were already present, as though to give a time and placement of the .incident to follow.



It is not the Hebrew understanding of the phrase. As the margin said, they called themselves by the name of the Lord.



The marginal notes with the KJV.



I thought the same thing before I read his words. I'[m no scholar, but the plain reading meant that to me.


When Jesus said it cannot be possible with angels, and Cain's and Seth's line had been separated, and the text distinguishes men spreading over the earth, and nothing in the text said anything about angels as an antecedent to the term for angels, I think it is indeed too odd.



I cannot seriously read those words by Christ and imagine angels that fall can do different. Angels that fell or not, all CAME FROM heaven. And seriously it seems really bizarre to me to believe differently.

That concept came from the Book of Enoch that is so nutty I cannot begin to describe it. These giants built Noah's ark? Caves in mountains where these giants hid?

I cannot hardly resist the urge to laugh at the overall concept.



What has that got to do with anything, though? There is no direct statement in Gen 6 to connect the picture with Jude's words. Nothing connects Gen 6 to fallen angels. We read of families divided and then lineages in chapter 5. And then this in 6. the context speaks of human beings without even having mentioned anything about angels except for the serpent whom we later learn is satan. Cherubims are not angels, I believe.

[mfblume]

bump for shazeep

Originally Posted by mfblume

The pattern you so marvelously showed, continues in chapter 12.

While people set out to make their OWN NAME GREAT and BUILD THEMSELVES a city, God told Abraham HE WOULD MAKE HIS NAME GREAT and we later learn HE WOULD BUILD HIM A CITY.

Genesis 11:2-4 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. (3) And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. (4) And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

contrasted from:

Genesis 12:1-3 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: (2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: (3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Saying angels are involved in the 6th chapter breaks the pattern between fleshly men versus godly men.

[mfblume]

bump for shazeep

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree angels can be known as sons of God. But I cannot accept the concept that angels can marry after the fall when Jesus said they simply are not given in marriage. Again, it's too absurd and requiring of wild speculation.



Not necessarily so. MEN were distinguished from SONS OF GOD later in Gen 6. My understanding views this to say the MEN were the unbelievers from Cain's lineage. The sons of God were Seth's lineage. It is simply saying, therefore, that time came when both formerly divided groups converged on one another due to sheer population growth, and the line of Seth saw women of Cain and chose to marry THEM AS WELL as those among Seth's line previous to this.

It's like Christians marrying sinners.



Yes. But not women from the line of Cain.



When we speak in spiritual terms, sons of God and men CAN BE DISTINGUISHING believers from unbelievers.

Before I read opinions of others, I held this view. However, I later came to read works such as those of Adam Clarke who readily agreed with me. So, I quote Clarke to merely show the reasoning is solid in the minds of others, and not to prove my view as correct.

Genesis 6:1

When men began to multiply - It was not at this time that men began to multiply, but the inspired penman speaks now of a fact which had taken place long before. As there is a distinction made here between men and those called the sons of God, it is generally supposed that the immediate posterity of Cain and that of Seth are intended. The first were mere men, such as fallen nature may produce, degenerate sons of a degenerate father, governed by the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, and the pride of life. The others were sons of God, not angels, as some have dreamed, but such as were, according to our Lord’s doctrine, born again, born from above, Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5,Joh_3:6, etc., and made children of God by the influence of the Holy Spirit, Gal_5:6. The former were apostates from the true religion, the latter were those among whom it was preserved and cultivated. Dr. Wall supposes the first verses of this chapter should be paraphrased thus: “When men began to multiply on the earth, the chief men took wives of all the handsome poor women they chose. There were tyrants in the earth in those days; and also after the antediluvian days powerful men had unlawful connections with the inferior women, and the children which sprang from this illicit commerce were the renowned heroes of antiquity, of whom the heathens made their gods.”

Albert Barnes really expounded on this issue with my sort of reasoning.

- The Growth of Sin
3. דון dı̂yn “be down, strive, subdue, judge.” בשׁגם bāshagām “inasmuch, as also.” The rendering “in their error” requires the pointing בשׁגם beshāgām, and the plural form of the following pronoun. It is also unknown to the Septuagint.

4. נפילים nepı̂lı̂ym “assailants, fellers, men of violence, tyrants.”

Having traced the line of descent from Adam through Sheth, the seed of God, to Noah, the author proceeds to describe the general spread and growth of moral evil in the race of man, and the determination of the Lord to wipe it away from the face of the earth.
Gen_6:1-4

There are two stages of evil set forth in Gen_6:1-4 - the one contained in the present four verses, and the other in the following. The former refers to the apostasy of the descendants of Sheth, and the cause and consequences of it. When man began to multiply, the separate families of Cain and Sheth would come into contact. The daughters of the stirring Cainites, distinguished by the graces of nature, the embellishments of art, and the charms of music and song, even though destitute of the loftier qualities of likemindedness with God, would attract attention and prompt to unholy alliances. The phrase “sons of God,” means an order of intelligent beings who “retain the purity of moral character” originally communicated, or subsequently restored, by their Creator. They are called the sons of God, because they have his spirit or disposition. The sons of God mentioned in Job_38:7, are an order of rational beings existing before the creation of man, and joining in the symphony of the universe, when the earth and all things were called into being. Then all were holy, for all are styled the sons of God. Such, however, are not meant in the present passage. For they were not created as a race, have no distinction of sex, and therefore no sexual desire; they “neither marry nor are given in marriage” Mat_22:30. It is contrary to the law of nature for different species even on earth to cohabit in a carnal way; much more for those in the body, and those who have not a body of flesh. Moreover, we are here in the region of humanity, and not in the sphere of superhuman spirits; and the historian has not given the slightest intimation of the existence of spiritual beings different from man.

The sons of God, therefore, are those who are on the Lord’s side, who approach him with duly significant offerings, who call upon him by his proper name, and who walk with God in their daily conversation. The figurative use of the word “son” to denote a variety of relations incidental, and moral as well as natural, was not unfamiliar to the early speaker. Thus, Noah is called “the son of five hundred years” Gen_5:32. Abraham calls Eliezer בן־בותי ben-bēytı̂y, “son of my house” Gen_15:3. The dying Rachel names her son Ben-oni, “son of my sorrow,” while his father called him Benjamin, “son of thy right hand” Gen_35:18. An obvious parallel to the moral application is presented in the phrases “the seed of the woman” and “the seed of the serpent.” ]The word “generations” תולדות tôledot, Gen_5:1) exhibits a similar freedom and elasticity of meaning, being applied to the whole doings of a rational being, and even to the physical changes of the material world Gen_2:4. The occasion for the present designation is furnished in the remark of Eve on the birth of Sheth. God hath given me another seed instead of Habel. Her son Sheth she therefore regarded as the son of God. Accordingly, about the birth of his son Enosh, was begun the custom calling upon the name of the Lord, no doubt in the family circle of Adam, with whom Sheth continued to dwell. And Enok, the seventh from Adam in the same line, exhibited the first striking example of a true believer walking with God in all the intercourse of life. These descendants of Sheth, among whom were also Lamek who spoke of the Lord, and Noah who walked with God, are therefore by a natural transition called the sons of God, the godlike in a moral sense, being born of the Spirit, and walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit Psa_82:6; Hos_2:1.

continued...