Nathan Morton Announces he's Leaving UPC

[Victorious]

Originally Posted by Berkley

What if the pastor tells you that you can't use facebook, must be clean shaven, must wear sleaves at x-length, etc.. etc. How is this pastor following Jesus?

Then it is decision time. The Word of God holds pastors and all believers accountable for all their words and actions. It is up to you in your personal relationship with God to determine whether or not your pastor is correct. I suggest that a person has a meeting with their pastor about perceived differences or problems. A good pastor will be open to these types of discussions. He may or may not change his opinion but you will at least know where he stands and why. Do not stir up dissension by taking the issue to others. If your differences are irreconcilable then you should make a decision on whether or not to continue attending that church, but it should be made through much prayer. This is just my personal opinion.

[Sister Alvear]

I would not want to be a member of a church where the pastor thinks he is pope....He is worthy of respect but he is not GOD...

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I would not want to be a member of a church where the pastor thinks he is pope....He is worthy of respect but he is not GOD...

The difference between the pope and some Apostolic pastors is
that the pope only expects you to kiss his ring.....

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Sam

The difference between the pope and some Apostolic pastors is
that the pope only expects you to kiss his ring.....

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by NorCal

I never said any pastor is infallible. In fact I stated that if a pastor leads his flock astray, then it is the LORDs right to rebuke him and none else.

And as I was neither Defending nor Accusing Pastor Morton, I can see how your spirit is (not your spirit personally, but those who slander and point fingers).

I personally have family on BOTH sides of the issue. From VERY Conservative to Very Liberal, but it comes down to following YOUR pastor at the church YOU attend, and YOU should not worry about anyone else but YOURSELF.

How can you remove the splinter from your bothers eye, when you have a beam sticking out yours?

This forums should be used to discuss biblical scripture and not bash any organization, person, or belief. As what I stated, defended BOTH sides of the isle on their beliefs, however you took me to be a puppet of one side - which I am not.

It is sad to see the "Apostolics" turn on themselves. It has become even greater with the advent of "Apostolic Forums". I have been around the Apostolic Forums in one way or another since 1992. And the seething has only gotten worse.

Let us embrace the Apostolic Plan of salvation and follow Christ.

"Follow me, as I follow Christ". "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

God Bless

PS. Just to clearify,
1. Your pastor does not save you, however, rebellion against your pastor can/will send you to hell. So for myself, as long as I attend a church, I will follow that pastors teaching (Be it, UPCI, WPF, etc). Wither it be about, sleeve length, TV, Internet, Movies, Sports, or anything else.
2. A hedge is not placed to keep people in, but to keep Satan out.
3. “Speak ill of no man, but speak all the good you know of everybody” - Ben Franklin.
4. Follow the rule of convictions and you will be safe. Bible > Pastor > Personal. This is the way I was taught and explained by my father, who learned it from his grandmother, who was around in the early 1900's.

@ReformedDave - David actually said that about Saul. He would not kill Saul, because he was still the Anointed of God, even though he had fallen astray.

This is totally a pentecostal line if I have ever heard one. A hedge, fence or whatever is set around a person by God alone and not because you dress or act a certain way. All that have accepted the Grace of God is covered with a hedge. If you want a hedge around you then follow Christ not man. Living a spirit-filled (not tongues-filled) life will keep the devil out and it doesn't take 'hedges or fences'.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I would not want to be a member of a church where the pastor thinks he is pope....He is worthy of respect but he is not GOD...

Amen!

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by Victorious

Then it is decision time. The Word of God holds pastors and all believers accountable for all their words and actions. It is up to you in your personal relationship with God to determine whether or not your pastor is correct. I suggest that a person has a meeting with their pastor about perceived differences or problems. A good pastor will be open to these types of discussions. He may or may not change his opinion but you will at least know where he stands and why. Do not stir up dissension by taking the issue to others. If your differences are irreconcilable then you should make a decision on whether or not to continue attending that church, but it should be made through much prayer. This is just my personal opinion.

This is how I follow my pastor. Blindly following someone is foolishness at its core. I feel the problem with American right now, is that we fell that the church should be a democracy, when it is clearly not. It should be Christ centered.

I have been the type of person that may not agree with everything the Pastor teaches and preaches, but as long as it follows The Letter and Spirit of the Bible, then I am required to follow that as long as I sit under him.

I do feel a lot of time that preaches the phrase "because I said so", instead of giving a scriptural backing for what they feel.

What I do not understand is the Bashing of any Oneness organization by fellow Oneness believers. And all I have stated in the previous post, is that I have NEVER PERSONALLY heard Rev Nathan Morton speak ill of anyone in the UPC, or any other Apostolic (oneness) Organization.

There are to many people that bash things that are taught that they either (a) do not understand (b) have had a revelation (c) have not studied it out for themselves (d) why the pastor preaches it.

There was one Pastor in the Cali UPC that was having a problem with the ladies showing to much leg (IE slits way up the side, back, etc and I do not mean a little.) He had been fighting this for quite sometime. Was he wrong in saying, since you can not follow your own modesty, then here is a guideline that you need to follow? Does that mean the Organization as a whole MUST follow his teaching now? I think not. We are a fellowship of like believes, not a religious hierarchy.

We see an example of this in many of Paul's writings. Its part of Pastoral-ship.

As, Victorious stated, there are to many people that like to stir up destination among the brethren (on both sides) when they need to focus on THEIR OWN LOCAL CHURCH.

@JTULLOCK - Is not "Come out and be ye separate saith the LORD" the ultimate Hedge? He told this to the people of Israel, because at times they were tempted to stray. And I believe it was both Peter and Paul that re-emphasized this. Exod. 33:16; Lev. 20:24; Ezra 6:21, 2 Cor. 6:17-18, 1 Peter 2:9.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by NorCal

This is how I follow my pastor. Blindly following someone is foolishness at its core. I feel the problem with American right now, is that we fell that the church should be a democracy, when it is clearly not. It should be Christ centered.

I have been the type of person that may not agree with everything the Pastor teaches and preaches, but as long as it follows The Letter and Spirit of the Bible, then I am required to follow that as long as I sit under him.

I do feel a lot of time that preaches the phrase "because I said so", instead of giving a scriptural backing for what they feel.

What I do not understand is the Bashing of any Oneness organization by fellow Oneness believers. And all I have stated in the previous post, is that I have NEVER PERSONALLY heard Rev Nathan Morton speak ill of anyone in the UPC, or any other Apostolic (oneness) Organization.

There are to many people that bash things that are taught that they either (a) do not understand (b) have had a revelation (c) have not studied it out for themselves (d) why the pastor preaches it.

There was one Pastor in the Cali UPC that was having a problem with the ladies showing to much leg (IE slits way up the side, back, etc and I do not mean a little.) He had been fighting this for quite sometime. Was he wrong in saying, since you can not follow your own modesty, then here is a guideline that you need to follow? Does that mean the Organization as a whole MUST follow his teaching now? I think not. We are a fellowship of like believes, not a religious hierarchy.

We see an example of this in many of Paul's writings. Its part of Pastoral-ship.

As, Victorious stated, there are to many people that like to stir up destination among the brethren (on both sides) when they need to focus on THEIR OWN LOCAL CHURCH.

@JTULLOCK - Is not "Come out and be ye separate saith the LORD" the ultimate Hedge? He told this to the people of Israel, because at times they were tempted to stray. And I believe it was both Peter and Paul that re-emphasized this. Exod. 33:16; Lev. 20:24; Ezra 6:21, 2 Cor. 6:17-18, 1 Peter 2:9.

WOW!!

Pastors preaching to other mens wives and daughters about how they should dress, completely out of line. No where in Scripture does he get this kind of authority. No wonder people use the word "Cult."

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

WOW!!

Pastors preaching to other mens wives and daughters about how they should dress, completely out of line. No where in Scripture does he get this kind of authority. No wonder people use the word "Cult."

Even your non-Apostolic believe in Pastoral Authority. Do I agree that some may take it to far? Yes. Every major Denomination has had Pastors that have abused their authority. But the bible does talk about it.

Hebrews 13:17, ”Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”

1 Peter 5:2, “Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind”

Even the Baptist are seriously looking at Pastoral Authority, and not the "Mob Rule" mentality. The Pastor and Church leadership needs to be in sync with each other. From my experience, most of your very conservative apostolic are not only Pastor lead, but usually the church board is in sync with the pastors views.

As for your views about Pastors preaching to other mens wives and daughters about dress. I can only reply with scripture. I think only 1 is really needed.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing;..." II Cor. 6:17

However to expand that the Apostles preached to other mens wives.
1Tim 2:9 - "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

1 Pet 3:3 - “Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel…”

Do I agree that people can be come very legalistic? Yes. I am a total believer of inward before outward.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Even your non-Apostolic believe in Pastoral Authority. Do I agree that some may take it to far? Yes. Every major Denomination has had Pastors that have abused their authority. But the bible does talk about it.

Hebrews 13:17, ”Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”

1 Peter 5:2, “Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind”

Even the Baptist are seriously looking at Pastoral Authority, and not the "Mob Rule" mentality. The Pastor and Church leadership needs to be in sync with each other. From my experience, most of your very conservative apostolic are not only Pastor lead, but usually the church board is in sync with the pastors views.

As for your views about Pastors preaching to other mens wives and daughters about dress. I can only reply with scripture. I think only 1 is really needed.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing;..." II Cor. 6:17

However to expand that the Apostles preached to other mens wives.
1Tim 2:9 - "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

1 Pet 3:3 - “Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel…”

Do I agree that people can be come very legalistic? Yes. I am a total believer of inward before outward.

Nothing like throwing the typical verses out without even understanding what is being said.

First, II Cor. 6:17 has no relevance whatsoever. Not sure what idol worship has to do with this discussion.

Second, I Tim 2:9 says to dress modestly, that doesn't mean no splits in the skirt, or no pants, or whatever else you want to make it say.

Third, I Pet. 3:3 is not about dress AT ALL it is about the heart. If you think it is about dress then the proper way to understand it would be not to wear apparel at all.

Pastoral authority is handed down from the RCC but we have already established that's not uncommon for folks like you. Authority in Scripture flows from the head, Christ, to man and woman, no pastor found in-between them. There is one mediator between God and man, and he isn't a pastor.