Emma Bontrager Tributes

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ILG

I guess what I read Sarge to be saying is that it is mind boggling....the practice of rumspringa itself. Yes, there is in-house debate...which is why some people end up moving to a different district to try and keep their young from straying too far. The truth is that, although I do agree that the Amish church is not by any means sanctioning the activities of sin during rumspringa, it is a tradition that "English" people would find mind boggling in that a coming of age in the English culture is generally one that is supposed to be balanced by responsibility....not just a cutting loose when one turns 16 and the parents and church saying "We are not responsible". It really is granted by the Amish parents and church by default in the tradition because the kids know that at 16 the church and parents will allow this. So, it is mind boggling to some extent that the Amish church practices this as a tradition. A mere coming of age is not the same thing.

Why would it be mind boggling? Rumspringa means running with the youth. That some youth exploit the privelige should be no surprise.

I deny that it (abuse of alcohol, drugs, and sex) is encouraged by the Elders and parents.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

The extent of the tolerance would vary from district to district and family to family I am sure...

But from my own experience as an Old Order Mennonite and a limited exposure to the Amish, I would say this tolerance is still less than that of society at large and even that of many parents I know in Pentecostal churches. I know parents who "allow" teenagers to drop out of school and lay around watching TV without a job or responsibility.

Sarge and ILG, Do you think a teen should be kicked out of his parents home if he starts smoking cigarettes or has had sex with his girlfriend? Even though I would certainly not condone such activity, I am not sure it would automatically mean removal from the premises. Nor do I think it would speak of tolerance of such in my church.

No, not necessarily. I think love works much better than harshness. I think the point was that rumspringa is a tradition that is sometimes mind-boggling. I'm not saying that Amish parents condone everything that happens in rumspringa (I think I said just the opposite), just that it is a door that seems very wide open as a tradition in the church. One wonders how it got started.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Why would it be mind boggling? Rumspringa means running with the youth. That some youth exploit the privelige should be no surprise.

I deny that it (abuse of alcohol, drugs, and sex) is encouraged by the Elders and parents.

I don't think it is encouraged at all. I'm sure it's actually discouraged. I'm talking about the practice of rumspringa as a tradition. It just seems strange to leave the door open at a certain age. Let's not even bring drugs etc. into it. Leaving the door open to have a cell phone if it's wrong just seems contradictory. It's just a strange practice.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ILG

No, not necessarily. I think love works much better than harshness. I think the point was that rumspringa is a tradition that is sometimes mind-boggling. I'm not saying that Amish parents condone everything that happens in rumspringa (I think I said just the opposite), just that it is a door that seems very wide open as a tradition in the church. One wonders how it got started.

I don't know, but it sure did take over did it not? With the exception of a few Christian denominations who hold to "Betrothal", the practice of joining the youth groups and dating is universal, as is abuse of alcohol, drugs and sex.

It is really that simple - don't let the word "Rumspringa" nor the black hats and bonnets fool you.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ILG

I don't think it is encouraged at all. I'm sure it's actually discouraged. I'm talking about the practice of rumspringa as a tradition. It just seems strange to leave the door open at a certain age. Let's not even bring drugs etc. into it. Leaving the door open to have a cell phone if it's wrong just seems contradictory. It's just a strange practice.

OK then...

I totally understand why they should have a few more liberties at a certain age, and no doubt will give my own children more liberties as they mature.

It should also be known the age for Rumspringa varies as well. 16 for some, 17 or 18 for other families.

Let's say I want my child to attend a Christian Bible School but they insist on a Liberal Arts College - they may get their way at that age.

Or lets say they are choosing to dress less conservatively than my wife and I do, again they may win.

No one is "leaving the door open" it is just basicly an acknowledgement that they have the power and legal right to move out, so a little tolerance is prefered over dumping ones child to the raving world. They still have some oversight from mom and dad in a very delicate time of life.

Among the Amish, burning bridges and cutting them off is saved for later... LOL! ...after they commit to the church and then want to leave!

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Sarge and ILG, Do you think a teen should be kicked out of his parents home if he starts smoking cigarettes or has had sex with his girlfriend?

Why is this coming into the conversation? My mention of what many of us heard while growing up was simply to show that parents DO have a say in what a child does while they live with them. You had seemed to say they did not in a prior post.

I totally understand why they should have a few more liberties at a certain age, and no doubt will give my own children more liberties as they mature.

I agree with more liberties as they age, however it appears you don't understand where I am coming from with this. ILG does. LOL. Liberties is one thing, making it open season to do or have things that you've taught them their entire life was wrong is another. And when they are old enough to leave and be on their own, then we are speaking of a different matter.

If the kids see rumspringa as an opportunity to do whatever they want, even things they have been taught are wrong, then something is wrong with the tradition. The church may be against such. The parents may be against such. But if the parents sit back and allow it during this time.....don't actions speak louder than words? How is that not condoning it? Kids still lack a great deal of wisdom at that age and to give them freedom to do whatever is ......mind boggling.

Anyway, I am bowing out of the discussion as my purpose for coming to AFF was to participate in the threads that dealt with spiritual abuse. They are over and so should my time here be.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Why is this coming into the conversation? My mention of what many of us heard while growing up was simply to show that parents DO have a say in what a child does while they live with them. You had seemed to say they did not in a prior post.

I simply brought it up to show the dilemma parents have in enforcement of rules with an 16 to 18 year old. You mentioned "as long as you live in my house..." and while I agree, getting out from under the roof is a simple act - I did it myself at age sixteen. (I don't recommend it BTW)


I agree with more liberties as they age, however it appears you don't understand where I am coming from with this. ILG does. LOL. Liberties is one thing, making it open season to do or have things that you've taught them their entire life was wrong is another. And when they are old enough to leave and be on their own, then we are speaking of a different matter.

If the kids see rumspringa as an opportunity to do whatever they want, even things they have been taught are wrong, then something is wrong with the tradition. The church may be against such. The parents may be against such. But if the parents sit back and allow it during this time.....don't actions speak louder than words? How is that not condoning it? Kids still lack a great deal of wisdom at that age and to give them freedom to do whatever is ......mind boggling.

The "open season" view is coming from those watching outside the church. The Amish and OOM do not encourage doing wrong while Rumspringa. They pray for and plead with their youth to make the right decisions. Again the alternative to tolerating a "wild" wayward one is ultimately kicking them out - not as easy nor as wise as one may think.


Anyway, I am bowing out of the discussion as my purpose for coming to AFF was to participate in the threads that dealt with spiritual abuse. They are over and so should my time here be.

Oh but I am right on the verge of feeling abused in this thread!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

OK then...

I totally understand why they should have a few more liberties at a certain age, and no doubt will give my own children more liberties as they mature.

It should also be known the age for Rumspringa varies as well. 16 for some, 17 or 18 for other families.

Let's say I want my child to attend a Christian Bible School but they insist on a Liberal Arts College - they may get their way at that age.

Or lets say they are choosing to dress less conservatively than my wife and I do, again they may win.

No one is "leaving the door open" it is just basicly an acknowledgement that they have the power and legal right to move out, so a little tolerance is prefered over dumping ones child to the raving world. They still have some oversight from mom and dad in a very delicate time of life.

Among the Amish, burning bridges and cutting them off is saved for later... LOL! ...after they commit to the church and then want to leave!

I think the difference is that it isn't so much a parental choice as it is a church tradition. I don't see it as the same as joinging the youth group because the kids know that they are going to have a lot more liberty just because they turn a certain age because this is what is practiced. They know that if they want to have a cell phone or drive a car at this age that it will be tolerated. In the UPC for example, the youth are not going to wear pants, watch TV, and try certain worldly things simply because they are in the youth group. The youth group has youth leadership that teaches the kids not to do these things. If they do it, they are doing it against church teachings. The difference in rumspringa is the wide agreement to basically turn a blind eye during this period as an agreed upon church tradition. I am not saying the church condones what they are doing.....I am saying the church condones the tradition itself. I am not talking about drugs and sex here. I am talking about breaking the ordnung. Do you see the difference between a tolerating but grieved parent putting up with a wayward teen and a church tradition that says "Well, kids will do these things".

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ILG

I think the difference is that it isn't so much a parental choice as it is a church tradition. I don't see it as the same as joinging the youth group because the kids know that they are going to have a lot more liberty just because they turn a certain age because this is what is practiced. They know that if they want to have a cell phone or drive a car at this age that it will be tolerated. In the UPC for example, the youth are not going to wear pants, watch TV, and try certain worldly things simply because they are in the youth group. The youth group has youth leadership that teaches the kids not to do these things. If they do it, they are doing it against church teachings. The difference in rumspringa is the wide agreement to basically turn a blind eye during this period as an agreed upon church tradition. I am not saying the church condones what they are doing.....I am saying the church condones the tradition itself. I am not talking about drugs and sex here. I am talking about breaking the ordnung. Do you see the difference between a tolerating but grieved parent putting up with a wayward teen and a church tradition that says "Well, kids will do these things".

I believe most (not all) Amish fit your first description best.

I think we must agree to disagree.

It is strange that I find myself at odds here, considering I am an ex and have plenty of grievances with the plain people. I don't wish to be viewed as an apologist for Amish and Mennonites, but find myself being just that again and again. Why don't they pay taxes? Why does the Church allow the young people to sin? Why aren't Amish allowed to read the Bible? Are they Christian?

My only interest is accuracy, and of course, sharing what I experienced as an Old Order Mennonite.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I believe most (not all) Amish fit your first description best.

I think we must agree to disagree.

It is strange that I find myself at odds here, considering I am an ex and have plenty of grievances with the plain people. I don't wish to be viewed as an apologist for Amish and Mennonites, but find myself being just that again and again. Why don't they pay taxes? Why does the Church allow the young people to sin? Why aren't Amish allowed to read the Bible? Are they Christian?

My only interest is accuracy, and of course, sharing what I experienced as an Old Order Mennonite.

Yes, I think we will have to agree to disagree here, but not so much because I think we see it differently. I think we see it very much the same but are looking at it from two different directions. I am getting the feeling that you think that I think the Amish church allows it's young to sin. I don't see it that way but explaining what I am seeing is hard to convey, apparently. I know Amish parents grieve when their young stray and sin. I know they do not say "Oh well! Hope they join the church soon!" But on the flip side, most average churches do not have a named tradition that has become somewhat of an open door (which is undoubtably not how the tradition started out). In most churches joining the youth group does not have the same context.