Reading Fudge's Book Again

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

I fell asleep last night reading the autobiograph of W. E. Kidson. It was an interesting read. In it, he speaks of Eugene Garret (from Washington) a great deal. I wondered if Bro Garrett was still alive. Anyone know?

Bro. Kidson was one of the old timers.
My brother-in-law was a kid going to the UPC Bible School in Houston years ago and met Bro. Kidson. I think it was in a dusty old office that seemed like a time warp.

What is the title of the book?
and do you know if it is still available for sale some where?

[Old Paths]

I got my Tommy Fudge book FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Thanks again Elder.

Originally Posted by Sam

Bro. Kidson was one of the old timers.
My brother-in-law was a kid going to the UPC Bible School in Houston years ago and met Bro. Kidson. I think it was in a dusty old office that seemed like a time warp.

What is the title of the book?
and do you know if it is still available for sale some where?

I don't rememberr the name of the book and would look it up if I were at home. I will be back home this weekend and will answer that question. But, the book is out of print. I bought it many years ago in Houston in the used book section of the "Pentecostal Book Store," (now defunct) on East Tex Fwy.

Yes, brother Kidson had a Bilble School in Houston as well as a church too. His son-in-law, Gordon MaGhee later assumed pastorate of the church. The church is currently named "Elim Tabernacle." I'm not even sure if they are still oneness. I've found it amazing how things turn out in the end once the drift begins. It seems the drift has begun everywhere, even in places I thought never would do so.

A funny side note in regards to Bro. Gordon Magee, probably one of the most brilliant minds of Oneness theology in his day, also the author of "Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus," still widely circulated by the UPCI publishing house.

Bro. MaGhee, inspite of being a UPCI preacher and pastor, took his church on a picnic and swimming trip down to Galveston. Everyone went swimming in their own swim wear...brother and YIKES!!!!...sisters too!!! (YES, sister Gertrude Finkledorf's cellulite was fully exposed)

Word drifted back to brother Guidroz and the Dist. Board. Not willing to let it go, the Tex. Board called bro. MaGhee in to answer some question in regards to that days' activies, particularly about the great swimming event. He was asked if it was true that there was "mixed bathing," among the brothers and sisters? To this repeatedly asked question, he vehemently denied. No action was taken against him or his church.

Some times later, someone asked him how it was that he could deny the mixed bathing question. He said, "No problem. There was not even one bar of soap among us."

You would have to have known brother MaGhee to really appreciate this. He had a brilliant mind, quick wit and a sense of humor that would keep you rolling on the floor with his sense of humor.

I gotta confess...

I don't have the book, never read the book, but if is about Christianity without the cross, why would I want to read it? I am already historically astute of the Pentecostal/Apostolic movement.

I am already well acquainted with the Affirmation or Loyalty Oath. I was there. I've written about it. Though in my writings I have been kind enough to not call it a document from hell as it surely is, but there can be no doubt how I feel. It is absolutely, without question, the most wicked thing that the UPCI has ever done while throwing men in a quandry that pitted their righteous conscience against a desire for fellowship and security that comes from fellowship of friends. Some decided to favor their conscience and convictions, many others have over rode their conscience and personal convictions, though in denial of it. Ultimately, it seems to me that this had the affect of making them less in character than they would have been had they stayed true to their conscience. Still others, probably the vast majority, had no scrupples one way or the other. This is unfortunate. It tells me that the spiritual sensitives are not where they should be. No wonder we are drifting.

[Felicity]

I hope there are more books written about the OP movement. I heard that there's a new book being written on the life of GT Haywood.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

I

... Bro. Gordon Magee, probably one of the most brilliant minds of Oneness theology in his day, also the author of "Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus," still widely circulated by the UPCI publishing house.
...

I heard Bro. Gordon Magee when I was a student at the Apostolic Bible Institute in 1956/1957. Later after coming to Cincinnati I received a magazine from the group with which he was affiliated which was called The Churches of God of Ireland.I don't remember if the subscription expired or if the magazine was discontinued.

In 1957 there was an ad in the local paper for a meeting at "The Full Gospel Church" here in Cincinnati with Bro. Magee as the speaker. The Full Gospel Church was a split from Bro. Curts' church in 1945 so a young man from the family where I was staying called Bro. Curts and Bro. Magee was forced to cancel the preaching engagement.

When I was in St. Paul in 1956/1957 when Bro. Magee was there I heard a story which I don't know if it is true or not. I heard that Bro. Buie (A.T. Morgan's son-in-law) talked to Bro. Magee about the Oneness of God and the Jesus' name message. At that time Bro. Magee did not agree with what he was hearing. He is alleged to have told Bro. Buie, "You know,you ought to write a book about that. You could call it hooey by Buie." Later Bro. Magee became a proponent of the Oneness message.

Years ago, I read "Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus?"

Originally Posted by Sam

I heard Bro. Gordon Magee when I was a student at the Apostolic Bible Institute in 1956/1957. Later after coming to Cincinnati I received a magazine from the group with which he was affiliated which was called The Churches of God of Ireland.I don't remember if the subscription expired or if the magazine was discontinued.

In 1957 there was an ad in the local paper for a meeting at "The Full Gospel Church" here in Cincinnati with Bro. Magee as the speaker. The Full Gospel Church was a split from Bro. Curts' church in 1945 so a young man from the family where I was staying called Bro. Curts and Bro. Magee was forced to cancel the preaching engagement.

When I was in St. Paul in 1956/1957 when Bro. Magee was there I heard a story which I don't know if it is true or not. I heard that Bro. Buie (A.T. Morgan's son-in-law) talked to Bro. Magee about the Oneness of God and the Jesus' name message. At that time Bro. Magee did not agree with what he was hearing. He is alleged to have told Bro. Buie, "You know,you ought to write a book about that. You could call it hooey by Buie." Later Bro. Magee became a proponent of the Oneness message.

Years ago, I read "Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus?"

"Hooey by Buie." Sounds just like something that this quick witted man would say.

G.A. Mangun gave me a 9 hour series of reel to reel tapes of a debate between him and a church of Christ preacher by the name of Totter if I rightly recall. His wit, brilliance and sound doctrine on the oneness of the Godhead came through marvelously. Bro. N. A. Urshan who was the moderator of that debate gave the tape to Bro. Mangun. I lost it. He has not loaned me a tape since... He just never took to those kind of jokes too well. Anyway, he got another set from Bro. Urshan.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

"Hooey by Buie." Sounds just like something that this quick witted man would say.

G.A. Mangun gave me a 9 hour series of reel to reel tapes of a debate between him and a church of Christ preacher by the name of Totter if I rightly recall. His wit, brilliance and sound doctrine on the oneness of the Godhead came through marvelously. Bro. N. A. Urshan who was the moderator of that debate gave the tape to Bro. Mangun. I lost it. He has not loaned me a tape since... He just never took to those kind of jokes too well. Anyway, he got another set from Bro. Urshan.

The Toddy & Magee debate is still available through Elder Tingle from Madisonville.

[Barb]

I did not know that Agnes Ozman renounced her Upper Room experience.

Interesting...

I would venture a guess that a majority of the majority (much greater than just 51%) of Apostolics know anything about the history of the movement, much less care about it.

It has been said that the victors write the history books, therefore which perspective is truth? There is a version from the organization/movement side, and there is a version from those who have left the movement and are strongly on the academic side, and there are those who are simply bitter and don't mind trashing the whole thing.

I know for a fact that J.L. has, in the past, embellished the history of the movement in order to maintain its legacy of posessing truth.

Fudge? I think because of his academic background, he has written the closest work. Boyd?

Can a work be written sans propaganda? Yea, but I can't imagine where it would come from.